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Old March 13 2014, 01:59 PM   #1216
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^To which should be added that Janeway admits she believes both men would sacrifice themselves for Tuvix. Even if she had the right to speak for them, she knows their answer would favor Tuvix.
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Old March 13 2014, 02:47 PM   #1217
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

She should have just blasted Tuvix out of an airlock and killed 2 birds with one stone.

The loss of Tuvok would have been unfortunate, but Janeway is smart enough to know he would gladly sacrifice himself to save the crew from having to listen to another day of either Neelix or Tuvix's inane babbling, or look at their stupid faces.
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Old March 13 2014, 05:35 PM   #1218
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
According to the episode, Tuvix was born through a process called symbiogenesis. He wasn't created, he didn't kill 2 people to create himself, he was *born*. Symbiogenesis is a form of procreation.
This consideration seems to be a much firmer basis on which to make a reasoned determination of the matter rather than "that's a tough one", "it could go either way", or going along with those that have long since punched their ticket on the Janeway Psycho Express.

Bearing in mind that this comes from someone who is a scientific idiot savant, minus the savant, I would say look at what this canonical explanation implies. Symbiogenesis is an evolutionary process that points toward cooperation in the synthesis of two different organisms in creating a new and unique one. This, I gather, supplements, but not necessarily supplants, the Darwinian paradigm of the primacy of competition as a driver. Now while in this situation a distinct life has been created, I am not sure I would define it as procreation. Certainly the act that brought Tuvix about was not an elective one that Neelix and Tuvok discerned, cogitated on, and then made an affirmative decision to execute. The examples of symbiogenesis that I have gleaned in my cursory look at the subject do not extend to higher forms and definitely not sentient beings.

Yet, it seems that there can be a wide variety of causative factors that lead to this outcome ranging over a spectrum of time frames, environmental stresses, etc. It would seem that the chance occurrence that befell N & T would not be out of character to be considered a valid expression of the process and therefore negate the argument of those who might claim Tuvix as an inconsequential "accident" with no legitimate standing to be seen as a co-equal to any one else in Voyager's complement.

While his integrity and inherent worth as an individual cannot then be diminished, I think it is possible to convey more rights than are warranted to Tuvix that would confer the status of a truly self-determining being, as contradictory at that would seem. He cannot nor, I believe, does he ever claim to unambiguously speak for either of his progenitors, each of whose individual hopes, desires, and aspirations would inevitably become increasingly diffused by Tuvix's burgeoning consciousness.

While only a hope initially, the Doctor seeks to find a means to return Neelix and Tuvok to their living forms and not just as a symbolic existence. I suppose I would ask that regardless what stratagem he might have ultimately devised to attain this goal, would that process carry any less of a natural rationalization than the one that was randomly ordered? Ultimately, I am not of the opinon that Neelix and Tuvok no longer existed, but simply were not currently present. As such, the effort to bring them back trumps Tuvix's right to unilaterally author his fate. At the same time, I would urge that whatever could be accomplished to maintain him as an autonomous entity be efforted as strenuously and for as long as possible. If for some reason cloning was not an option, have him put into stasis until such time as a solution was available otherwise and be done with it.
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Old March 13 2014, 05:44 PM   #1219
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Janeway's big mistake was letting the joined being roam the ship and interact with the crew for a week or however long it was. It was during that period that it started to think of itself as one instead of two, and gave itself a name.

The joined being should have immediately been put in stasis and kept there until the accident could be reversed.
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Old March 13 2014, 06:33 PM   #1220
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Still bugs me that nobody ever replies to the questions I raise on the subject, but I'll forego that in favor of asking exactly how long Tuvix does exist, since I haven't watched the episode in forever.

I think it might have been a stronger episode if they'd upped the stakes by making it a month instead of a week. Though the fact that the episode generates this much debate speaks well for its strength...or the persistence of people here.
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Old March 13 2014, 08:06 PM   #1221
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Didn't Tuvix have bodily autonomy too?
No since the amalgamated bodies belonged to Neelix and Tuvok to begin with. What I am saying is according to US law (and several other countries), all the rights belong to Tuvok and Neelix. The term is "continuous consent." Meaning not only to Tuvok and Neelix have to give permission, they have to continue to give permission. You cannot even use the body parts of someone declared legally dead without permission.
But we once again come to the transporter accident, they consented to using the transporter with the knowledge that something no matter how remote could go wrong with the transporter process. Something went wrong and as a consequence of their consent to use the transporter they have to abide by the consequences of their consententual decision to use the transporter.
Implied consent can only be taken if you can prove that both parties could reasonably expect to be put together in a transporter accident. Unless this outcome was so common that both parties were knowledgeable as to the risk, you cannot imply that their consent is based on an ambiguous idea that transporters are dangerous. You might reasonably consent to a danger of being killed, but I don't see how anyone could have a blanket consent that involves two different species and a blossom from a planet in the Delta Quadrant that hadn't been observed before.

In fact the only kind of consent documents I can see that Star Fleet might require is the consent for a Commanding Officer to decide your fate should you be incapacitated in the line of your Star Fleet Service, which is what we saw Janeway actually doing in the episode.

hux wrote: View Post
But if Tuvix isn't a separate entity and consciousness (with his own rights) and is simply a combination of Tuvok and Neelix then surely his demand to live can easily be construed as proof that Tuvok and Neelix are demonstrably giving their consent....if Tuvix is simply "them" combined then his desire to live is also their desire....and as long as he continuously claims to want to live, they are continuously giving consent
Actually if you watch the episode, in the beginning, Tuvix was also actively helping the Doctor to discover a way to separate him back into his two components. Could that not be construed to be a lack of consent on Tuvok and Neelix's part.

It is entirely possible that Tuvix was not emotionally stable in the first place, and that we actually saw the beginning of his breakdown before he was separated. But remember this is "continuing consent", and what we see at the end is that neither Neelix nor Tuvok asking to be put back together.
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Old March 13 2014, 08:25 PM   #1222
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvok probably took a long hot sonic shower, making sure all the Neelix cooties were out of his system.
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Old March 13 2014, 08:28 PM   #1223
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
Actually if you watch the episode, in the beginning, Tuvix was also actively helping the Doctor to discover a way to separate him back into his two components. Could that not be construed to be a lack of consent on Tuvok and Neelix's part.
If we're working on the basis that Tuvix is not a unique consciousness then this would simply highlight that they (Tuvok and Neelix) changed their minds and came to prefer the shared existence of Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
It is entirely possible that Tuvix was not emotionally stable in the first place, and that we actually saw the beginning of his breakdown before he was separated. But remember this is "continuing consent", and what we see at the end is that neither Neelix nor Tuvok asking to be put back together.
That argument doesn't work....firstly, we didn't hear them say anything for or against such an outcome and secondly, they may not want to admit to wanting to be put back together
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Old March 13 2014, 09:24 PM   #1224
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Actually, this circumstance was not unknown and some standard was already in play in Federation medicine.

There's no way to remove Curzon's memories from Odo without his cooperation. He has to give them up willingly.
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Old March 13 2014, 09:53 PM   #1225
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

DonIago wrote: View Post
Still bugs me that nobody ever replies to the questions I raise on the subject, but I'll forego that in favor of asking exactly how long Tuvix does exist, since I haven't watched the episode in forever.

I think it might have been a stronger episode if they'd upped the stakes by making it a month instead of a week. Though the fact that the episode generates this much debate speaks well for its strength...or the persistence of people here.
It had been a month.

The writers thought that was long enough for Tuvix to establish himself and appreciate his life.

The entire crew was halved in deadlock, and two Janeways first plan was stick themselves back together until it wasn't and they should both fly free.

For a moment, both Janeways agreed on their immediate destruction to create a super composite of themselves, to Tuvix everyone, their ship and everyone aboard her... Which would have amalgamated Naomi with a corpse and killed the still living version of her obviously, was a fantastic idea.

Sam would have bludgeoned her with a hyperspanner.
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Old March 14 2014, 12:57 AM   #1226
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

No since the amalgamated bodies belonged to Neelix and Tuvok to begin with. What I am saying is according to US law (and several other countries), all the rights belong to Tuvok and Neelix. The term is "continuous consent." Meaning not only to Tuvok and Neelix have to give permission, they have to continue to give permission. You cannot even use the body parts of someone declared legally dead without permission.
But we once again come to the transporter accident, they consented to using the transporter with the knowledge that something no matter how remote could go wrong with the transporter process. Something went wrong and as a consequence of their consent to use the transporter they have to abide by the consequences of their consententual decision to use the transporter.
Implied consent can only be taken if you can prove that both parties could reasonably expect to be put together in a transporter accident. Unless this outcome was so common that both parties were knowledgeable as to the risk, you cannot imply that their consent is based on an ambiguous idea that transporters are dangerous. You might reasonably consent to a danger of being killed, but I don't see how anyone could have a blanket consent that involves two different species and a blossom from a planet in the Delta Quadrant that hadn't been observed before.

In fact the only kind of consent documents I can see that Star Fleet might require is the consent for a Commanding Officer to decide your fate should you be incapacitated in the line of your Star Fleet Service, which is what we saw Janeway actually doing in the episode.

hux wrote: View Post
But if Tuvix isn't a separate entity and consciousness (with his own rights) and is simply a combination of Tuvok and Neelix then surely his demand to live can easily be construed as proof that Tuvok and Neelix are demonstrably giving their consent....if Tuvix is simply "them" combined then his desire to live is also their desire....and as long as he continuously claims to want to live, they are continuously giving consent
Actually if you watch the episode, in the beginning, Tuvix was also actively helping the Doctor to discover a way to separate him back into his two components. Could that not be construed to be a lack of consent on Tuvok and Neelix's part.

It is entirely possible that Tuvix was not emotionally stable in the first place, and that we actually saw the beginning of his breakdown before he was separated. But remember this is "continuing consent", and what we see at the end is that neither Neelix nor Tuvok asking to be put back together.
When we do something, do we always know every single possible risk? I suspect not, as sometimes something unforseen can occur that the creators/inventors never even thought could happen.
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Old March 14 2014, 01:06 AM   #1227
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Soon there is going to be a settlement from an air disaster so staggering that, that passengers thenceforth will all have to sign binding wavers before their air plane will even think about rising off the tarmac.

Or is this already happening?

911 victims can't sue the binladin group (a company founded by Osama's dad.) but they can sue Saudi Arabia...

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...den-group.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/911-familie...ry?id=21290177
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Old March 14 2014, 02:12 AM   #1228
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
When we do something, do we always know every single possible risk? I suspect not, as sometimes something unforseen can occur that the creators/inventors never even thought could happen.
At the time of the episode, transporters had been in use well over one hundred years.

From Memory Beta
"By the 24th century, most space-faring civilizations of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants employed transporter technology for short-range transport of personnel and equipment. There were many advantages to utilizing transporters.

Traveling by transporter was essentially instantaneous and an individual's sense of time while transporting was effectively non-existent. Benjamin Sisko and Harry Kim, while training at Starfleet Academy in San Francisco, frequently transported to New Orleans and South Carolina, respectively, to see their parents. (DS9: "Explorers"; VOY: "Non Sequitur")"
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transporter

So yes I do think that all the people in the Federation knew about transporters and in general come to expect to be moved from one point to another safely. I am also relatively sure that Star Fleet had a policy of protecting the safety and the individual rights of the people that chose to serve. You wouldn't get too many volunteers if you didn't.
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Old March 14 2014, 03:22 AM   #1229
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

As safe as Transporters may seem, remember that terrorism still exists, and devices called "pattern scramblers" (DS9 Empok Nor.) are effective and deadly which can turn any transporter into a suicide booth without the transportee being at all aware that s/he is signing their own death warrant.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transporter_scrambler

Considering that there are parts of America with incidentally flammable drinking water.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...flammable.html

Like dominoes, state after state is going to have fucked up tap water eventually, but until that moment of transition, in every specific geographical location continentally vs. time, it's unclear why anyone would should stop drinking/using safe drinking water while it is still safe, before it is unsafe.
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Old March 14 2014, 05:36 AM   #1230
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Today, dated Friday March 14 (where I live.) on Greys Anatomy, which I'm ten minutes into, an organ donor is pronounced brain dead. They legally have to wait 6 hours to be just sure. The brother of the donor then asks the Doctors if he can have the kidney he donated a month ago, back, which must have been a last ditch effort to save his brothers life THAT FAILED.

"If I loaned him my bike, I'd want it back."

I'll update this post in 30 minutes when the episode finishes.
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