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Old March 12 2014, 09:35 PM   #1201
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

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^ By that logic, Neelix and Tuvok would be the ones to decide, owing to th fact that they are carrying Tuvix.

They are his container, substance, essence and combined lifeforce.

As I pointed out about seven hundredn posts back, after their captivity, neither Neelix, nor Tuvok, made any attempt to have themselves squeshed back into Tuvix.

Obviously they made their choice, a choice that was theirs to make.

Er, no. Tuvok and Neelix could be described as the "parents" of Tuvix, but he is the vessel that contains them, and he is in possession of the body that contains them. Indeed, Tuvok and Neelix only exist theoretically so long as they are inside Tuvix. As with a woman carrying a child, it is her choice to entertain the risk, to sacrifice herself for that child. This one life vs. two lives is a distraction.
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Old March 12 2014, 09:48 PM   #1202
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Legally women don't always have a choice.
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Old March 12 2014, 09:50 PM   #1203
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

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Legally women don't always have a choice.
True. They might just be allowed to die. However, are we going to argue that the societies that would require a woman to die because she is carrying a child is the one that should be emulated in the 24th century?
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Old March 12 2014, 10:43 PM   #1204
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Obviously I was talking about idiotic religious convictions, but I was also talking about 6 months in. When you are way past that line where the doctors are willing to preform a legal abortion, but some hypothetical woman still really doesn't want to go through with it.

Killing a glut of cells that might be life, compared to stabbing something that has toes, fingers and a heartbeat with a coat hanger thirty or forty times, are not te same thing.

The Abortion argument actually works in Neelix and Tuvoks favour, they are fully formed and in charge of lives that deserve to be lived even if it inconveniences the person carrying them.

In a life or death situation, where a mother carrying a child is at risk, the decision can be made by the mother if she is consious, or family if she is not, to either kill the baby or risk the mother by trying to save both.

Thing is, that the Tuvix situation was not life and death.

There was no ticking clock.

Tuvok and Neelix were fine in there and probably could have still been extracted 20 years later.
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Old March 12 2014, 11:19 PM   #1205
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

That would have sucked, being extracted 20 years older.
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Old March 13 2014, 12:26 AM   #1206
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Well, would they have aged?

Remember TNG Rascals?
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Old March 13 2014, 02:36 AM   #1207
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
^ By that logic, Neelix and Tuvok would be the ones to decide, owing to th fact that they are carrying Tuvix.
They are his container, substance, essence and combined lifeforce.
As I pointed out about seven hundredn posts back, after their captivity, neither Neelix, nor Tuvok, made any attempt to have themselves squeshed back into Tuvix.
Obviously they made their choice, a choice that was theirs to make.
Er, no. Tuvok and Neelix could be described as the "parents" of Tuvix, but he is the vessel that contains them, and he is in possession of the body that contains them. Indeed, Tuvok and Neelix only exist theoretically so long as they are inside Tuvix. As with a woman carrying a child, it is her choice to entertain the risk, to sacrifice herself for that child. This one life vs. two lives is a distraction.
Er, no Bad Thoughts, Tuvix isn't a child because children do not require their parents tissues, and organs to exist, only a sperm and an ovum. The biology does not require the parents to die for their children to live. The real question falls under body autonomy.

ďThereís a concept called bodily autonomy. Itís generally considered a human right. Bodily autonomy means a person has control over who, or what uses their body, for what, and for how long. Itís why you canít be forced to donate blood, tissue, or organs. Even if youíre dead. Even if youíd have save or improve 20 lives. Itís why someone canít touch you, have sex with you, or use your body in any way without your continuous consent."

Tuvix was using someone else's body; he hadn't the right to do so or the permission of those individuals. This concept of bodily autonomy is actually the law of the land in the U.S. Since neither could give informed consent they had to be given their bodies back. And truly Janeway had no choice but to do so, I'm not saying she liked the decision she made but it was the only one she could have made.
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Old March 13 2014, 02:44 AM   #1208
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
^ By that logic, Neelix and Tuvok would be the ones to decide, owing to th fact that they are carrying Tuvix.
They are his container, substance, essence and combined lifeforce.
As I pointed out about seven hundredn posts back, after their captivity, neither Neelix, nor Tuvok, made any attempt to have themselves squeshed back into Tuvix.
Obviously they made their choice, a choice that was theirs to make.
Er, no. Tuvok and Neelix could be described as the "parents" of Tuvix, but he is the vessel that contains them, and he is in possession of the body that contains them. Indeed, Tuvok and Neelix only exist theoretically so long as they are inside Tuvix. As with a woman carrying a child, it is her choice to entertain the risk, to sacrifice herself for that child. This one life vs. two lives is a distraction.
Er, no Bad Thoughts, Tuvix isn't a child because children do not require their parents tissues, and organs to exist, only a sperm and an ovum. The biology does not require the parents to die for their children to live. The real question falls under body autonomy.

ďThereís a concept called bodily autonomy. Itís generally considered a human right. Bodily autonomy means a person has control over who, or what uses their body, for what, and for how long. Itís why you canít be forced to donate blood, tissue, or organs. Even if youíre dead. Even if youíd have save or improve 20 lives. Itís why someone canít touch you, have sex with you, or use your body in any way without your continuous consent."

Tuvix was using someone else's body; he hadn't the right to do so or the permission of those individuals. This concept of bodily autonomy is actually the law of the land in the U.S. Since neither could give informed consent they had to be given their bodies back. And truly Janeway had no choice but to do so, I'm not saying she liked the decision she made but it was the only one she could have made.
You should reconsider you response: in no way to I associate Tuvix with the unborn child. Rather I associate him with the expectant woman and her rights to determine the course of treatment that may affect her life.
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Old March 13 2014, 02:46 AM   #1209
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Didn't Tuvix have bodily autonomy too?

Janeway forced him to sacrifice his tissues to create some bygone lost entities.

How the conservation of matter/circle of life/closed ecostructure works is that inside any of us is the atoms of almost every one that has every lived, including Caesar and Shakespeare.

If I could bring Julius Caesar back, and all it would take is finding all his atoms, and put them back together, no matter who I had to dig into to find them, would that colossal death toll be acceptable?
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Old March 13 2014, 06:40 AM   #1210
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

By bygone you mean last week?
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Old March 13 2014, 06:45 AM   #1211
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Didn't Tuvix have bodily autonomy too?
No since the amalgamated bodies belonged to Neelix and Tuvok to begin with. What I am saying is according to US law (and several other countries), all the rights belong to Tuvok and Neelix. The term is "continuous consent." Meaning not only to Tuvok and Neelix have to give permission, they have to continue to give permission. You cannot even use the body parts of someone declared legally dead without permission.
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Old March 13 2014, 07:13 AM   #1212
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I'm sure I remember a Grey's Anatomy, maybe something else, where two old geezers got into an argument so huge, that one of them asked for their Kidney back and and the other guy was in such a fuss that he agreed because he didn't want "that assholes" Kidney so much anymore anyway.

I can see how these real laws can be used to stop an abusive and illegal black market organ trade, but can they also be used to to retrieve stolen organs from out of thieves?

Have you seen the movie Repo Men? Becuase that's exactly what happens, armed bastards knocking doors down and taking hearts and livers back to the organ bank to be released back to the paying public. (It's not very good.)

And then there's this Never let Me Go which is about an alternate universe where they figure out clones in the 1950s, but they still have to grow up at normal speed before they are used for parts. Incredibly sad.

The problem with your consent issue however is that god or the universe doesn't have to ask consent, and that's the nearsighted bugger who created Tuvix.

Besides, do you really think that any one who hasn't signed away consent from a complete disaster would be allowed to use a transporter? Logically, this is something your parents do when you are born, and you have to ratify as an adult when you turn 18.
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Old March 13 2014, 07:21 AM   #1213
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
. . .Have you seen the movie Repo Men? Becuase that's exactly what happens, armed bastards knocking doors down and taking hearts and livers back to the organ bank to be released back to the paying public. (It's not very good.)
I've not seen it, but from your description it sounds like they ripped off an old Monty Python sketch.
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Old March 13 2014, 12:02 PM   #1214
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Didn't Tuvix have bodily autonomy too?
No since the amalgamated bodies belonged to Neelix and Tuvok to begin with. What I am saying is according to US law (and several other countries), all the rights belong to Tuvok and Neelix. The term is "continuous consent." Meaning not only to Tuvok and Neelix have to give permission, they have to continue to give permission. You cannot even use the body parts of someone declared legally dead without permission.
But we once again come to the transporter accident, they consented to using the transporter with the knowledge that something no matter how remote could go wrong with the transporter process. Something went wrong and as a consequence of their consent to use the transporter they have to abide by the consequences of their consententual decision to use the transporter.
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Old March 13 2014, 01:15 PM   #1215
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
No since the amalgamated bodies belonged to Neelix and Tuvok to begin with. What I am saying is according to US law (and several other countries), all the rights belong to Tuvok and Neelix. The term is "continuous consent." Meaning not only to Tuvok and Neelix have to give permission, they have to continue to give permission. You cannot even use the body parts of someone declared legally dead without permission.
But if Tuvix isn't a separate entity and consciousness (with his own rights) and is simply a combination of Tuvok and Neelix then surely his demand to live can easily be construed as proof that Tuvok and Neelix are demonstrably giving their consent....if Tuvix is simply "them" combined then his desire to live is also their desire....and as long as he continuously claims to want to live, they are continuously giving consent
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