RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,224
Posts: 5,405,599
Members: 24,764
Currently online: 502
Newest member: beakel001

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 13 2014, 12:00 PM   #16
HIjol
Fleet Captain
 
HIjol's Avatar
 
Location: Currently U.A.E (a lot like Tatooine!)
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Khan says to Chekov, "You didn't expect to find me. You thought this was Ceti Alpha Six! Why are you here? ...Why are you here? ...Why..." And then, "...That's better! Now tell me ...why you are here? ...And tell me where I may find James Kirk..."

I think Chekov and/or Terrell told him, "under the influence"...
__________________
"If man is to survive, he will delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear" Gene Roddenberry
HIjol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2014, 12:16 PM   #17
Lance
Fleet Captain
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

It's also worth noting that Admiral Kirk has got the command authority to unlock a top secret promo video outlining what Project Genesis is (and, indeed, he even features in said video presentation when it reappears in the two follow-up sequels!), so presumably there is at least some knowledge of the project back at Starfleet Command, perhaps only to Admirals of a particular star ranking and higher.

I do keep getting the impression from the movies that Kirk is involved with the Genesis project somehow, though. Maybe he helped to "push the right buttons" on Carol's behalf, to convince Starfleet Command to pursue the project? And maybe the caveat of that initial push was that it became, at least in part, Admiral Kirk's baby as well as Carol Marcuses? Maybe Jim Kirk is the liason between the Genesis team and the brass at Starfleet?
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2014, 12:45 PM   #18
HIjol
Fleet Captain
 
HIjol's Avatar
 
Location: Currently U.A.E (a lot like Tatooine!)
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Lance wrote: View Post
It's also worth noting that Admiral Kirk has got the command authority to unlock a top secret promo video outlining what Project Genesis is (and, indeed, he even features in said video presentation when it reappears in the two follow-up sequels!), so presumably there is at least some knowledge of the project back at Starfleet Command, perhaps only to Admirals of a particular star ranking and higher.

I do keep getting the impression from the movies that Kirk is involved with the Genesis project somehow, though. Maybe he helped to "push the right buttons" on Carol's behalf, to convince Starfleet Command to pursue the project? And maybe the caveat of that initial push was that it became, at least in part, Admiral Kirk's baby as well as Carol Marcuses? Maybe Jim Kirk is the liason between the Genesis team and the brass at Starfleet?
But how would that help Khan know anything?...
__________________
"If man is to survive, he will delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear" Gene Roddenberry
HIjol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2014, 12:54 PM   #19
HIjol
Fleet Captain
 
HIjol's Avatar
 
Location: Currently U.A.E (a lot like Tatooine!)
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

.
__________________
"If man is to survive, he will delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear" Gene Roddenberry

Last edited by HIjol; March 13 2014 at 02:01 PM. Reason: Duplicate
HIjol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2014, 06:42 PM   #20
Nebusj
Rear Admiral
 
Nebusj's Avatar
 
View Nebusj's Twitter Profile
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Timo wrote: View Post
In the end, Genesis means nothing to Khan.
… Apart from a way to turn a desolate, lifeless, destroyed world into a Garden of Eden. And maybe, depending on how he's garbled the concept in his head, to bring the dead back to life.

(Of course it's madness to think that Genesis could restore someone dead, but, given the sales pitch of Genesis as a way of bringing life to the dead it wouldn't be a totally mad misunderstanding, just, the sort of thing that makes the scientists roll their eyes and start long paragraphs with, ``no, this is what we mean''.)
Nebusj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2014, 07:08 PM   #21
BK613
Captain
 
BK613's Avatar
 
Location: BK613
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

If Carol's call to Kirk was the only transmission about Genesis, and Khan arrives at Regula to find no Genesis, it's not a stretch for Khan to think that Kirk knows something about its location.
__________________
-------------------
"The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place." - George Bernard Shaw
BK613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2014, 08:11 PM   #22
Shat Happens
Commander
 
Shat Happens's Avatar
 
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

I thought Kirk knew everything since he's an Admiral and issued a lot of orders including Chekov's post on Reliant. Probably Reliant's misson itself.

When he accessed Dr. Marcus' presentation it was for the benefit of Spock ans McCoy. Spock had just asked him: "it would help my analysis if I knew what Genesis is"

The novelization IIRC supports this.
Shat Happens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2014, 08:37 PM   #23
Grant
Fleet Captain
 
Grant's Avatar
 
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

As usual the specific dialogue was cut out in editing the movie................



45 INT. RELIANT BRIDGE 45

Khan occupies the Captain's chair. We PULL BACK: the
crew of the RELIANT has been replaced by Khan's fol-
lowers in their odd-looking clothes.

At the helm is Joachim, Khan's lieutenant. He is in the
largest and brightest of Khan's group. Terrell sits in
the First Officer's chair, Chekov at the Comm Console.
Their behavior is normal, save for subtle hesitation,
symptoms of their mind-controlled state.

JOACHIM
Steady on course. All systems normal.

KHAN
It's not much different from
Enterprise.
(beat)
When I was a guest aboard her some
years ago, Captain Kirk kindly allowed
me to memorize her technical manuals.
And now, Mr. Chekov, let us review:
You say you have no details of
Project 'Genesis' ?

CHEKOV
Beyond what I told you, sir, it is
classified information.

KHAN
Umm. And would Admiral Kirk have
access to such information?

CHEKOV
I would think so, sir. He's on the
Fleet General Staff.

KHAN
Then to whom do you report directly
regarding Genesis?

CHEKOV
To Doctor Marcus, the civilian
director of the experiments on Space
Laboratory Regula I.

KHAN
(thinks)
I see. Helmsman?
Grant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2014, 08:56 PM   #24
Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: USS Reliant
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

BK613 wrote: View Post
If Carol's call to Kirk was the only transmission about Genesis, and Khan arrives at Regula to find no Genesis, it's not a stretch for Khan to think that Kirk knows something about its location.
Not a stretch, but not a given either. Carol only called Kirk because of Chekov's earlier message, something Khan himself was counting on. When Reliant encounters Enterprise, Khan has already been to Marcus' lab and found nothing. The Enterprise was en route to the station, which means they couldn't have the Genesis materials on board their ship. Kirk himself may have known of the project, but that doesn't mean he'd have been able to tell Khan anything useful.

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
I thought Kirk knew everything since he's an Admiral and issued a lot of orders including Chekov's post on Reliant. Probably Reliant's misson itself.
There's absolutely nothing in the movie or script that supports this hypothesis. Even an admiral has limits as to what he knows or is authorized to do. Kirk was Commandant of Starfleet Academy. His flag rank probably granted him the necessary security clearance to view the Genesis tape, but that doesn't mean he'd seen it before or that he knew anything more than the simplest details of the project itself.

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
When he accessed Dr. Marcus' presentation it was for the benefit of Spock ans McCoy. Spock had just asked him: "it would help my analysis if I knew what Genesis is"
Correct, but that doesn't mean he knew that much more than they did. It's possible he'd seen the tape before given his comments about how long ago it was made, but that again only supports the theory that he had basic knowledge of the project. There's no reason to believe that he knew of the project's more technical aspects or that he issued the orders assigning Reliant to find a test site for the device. Chekov was on Reliant, yes, but he was under Terrell's command, not Kirk's, and hadn't been for several years. And as Terrell himself said he'd never met Kirk before, it's a stretch to believe Kirk gave him his assignment.
Clark Terrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2014, 11:07 PM   #25
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Quite so. It appears likely (and dramatically satisfying) that Kirk would not have been able to give Khan what he wanted, even if Kirk caved in to Khan's demands. Kirk's role in all this may have been minor, but in Khan's eyes, it would of course be major: all evil in the universe must stem from Kirk, and lots and lots of seeming evidence is accumulating to support Khan's deranged belief that this is so.

Kirk knows Carol, and knows Carol works on Genesis. He doesn't seem intimate with either the woman or the project, though: he doesn't recognize the grown-up David, and he knows nothing about the Genesis Cave. And it seems neither Carol nor David is much better off there: their ideas of Kirk's role in Starfleet and his relationship to the project are fuzzy as best. Heck, Carol doesn't hail Jim because he would be her immediate superior or contact man or anything - she hails her only Starfleet ex-lover because she needs insider help from or possibly against Starfleet.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 13 2014, 11:49 PM   #26
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Nebusj wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
In the end, Genesis means nothing to Khan.
… Apart from a way to turn a desolate, lifeless, destroyed world into a Garden of Eden. And maybe, depending on how he's garbled the concept in his head, to bring the dead back to life.

(Of course it's madness to think that Genesis could restore someone dead, but, given the sales pitch of Genesis as a way of bringing life to the dead it wouldn't be a totally mad misunderstanding, just, the sort of thing that makes the scientists roll their eyes and start long paragraphs with, ``no, this is what we mean''.)
As I recall, the phrase was "life from lifelessness." That doesn't mean bringing life to the dead. There wasn't any life there to begin with, so there couldn't be anything dead to bring back to life.
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14 2014, 12:25 AM   #27
Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: USS Reliant
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Timo wrote: View Post
Quite so. It appears likely (and dramatically satisfying) that Kirk would not have been able to give Khan what he wanted, even if Kirk caved in to Khan's demands. Kirk's role in all this may have been minor, but in Khan's eyes, it would of course be major: all evil in the universe must stem from Kirk, and lots and lots of seeming evidence is accumulating to support Khan's deranged belief that this is so.
Starting with Terrell's seeming announcement that Kirk had been promoted since Khan had seen him last, something Khan seems to briefly obsess over, as though he believes Kirk's promotion was directly related to his leaving Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha V-- because a man capable of overcoming genetically-enhanced supermen couldn't be any good at his job or have done other things to justify a bump in his rank.

Timo wrote: View Post
Kirk knows Carol, and knows Carol works on Genesis. He doesn't seem intimate with either the woman or the project, though: he doesn't recognize the grown-up David, and he knows nothing about the Genesis Cave. And it seems neither Carol nor David is much better off there: their ideas of Kirk's role in Starfleet and his relationship to the project are fuzzy as best. Heck, Carol doesn't hail Jim because he would be her immediate superior or contact man or anything - she hails her only Starfleet ex-lover because she needs insider help from or possibly against Starfleet.
Something she does in part only because Chekov lied about his involvement. He could just as easily have said that Harry Morrow or Lance Cartwright gave the order, in which case she'd have contacted them instead of Kirk. Kirk's role in the affair isn't minor. He doesn't seem to have a role at all until he's dragged into the middle of a huge steaming pile due to poor coordination between Starfleet and its civilian scientific branch. Reliant should never have been sent anywhere near Ceti Alpha V for the very reasons we saw onscreen.

If Starfleet was worried about knowledge of Khan spreading beyond the relative few who knew of him, they could simply have told Terrell that the system was off-limits for security reasons and left it at that. Clark Terrell was a well-respected starship commander, but he never seemed the type to stick his nose where it didn't belong. In any case, Starfleet should have reviewed the list of possible test sites before allowing Reliant to proceed with its survey mission to ensure that each area was safe.

Their negligence set in motion a chain of events leading to Khan's escape, the destruction of three Federation starships, the deaths of three Starfleet captains (though one was restored to life), another in a long list of conflicts with the Klingon Empire, the deaths of several civilian scientists and the internal controversy spurred by the charges against Kirk and his friends for circumventing Federation policy to go to Genesis and retrieve Spock. All told, I think Starfleet Command should have put itself on trial rather than punishing Kirk (and this is coming from someone who believes the entirety of the TOS films is an illustration of Kirk's leadership-by-arrogance approach to starship command).
Clark Terrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14 2014, 12:45 AM   #28
Shat Happens
Commander
 
Shat Happens's Avatar
 
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Nebusj wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
In the end, Genesis means nothing to Khan.
… Apart from a way to turn a desolate, lifeless, destroyed world into a Garden of Eden. And maybe, depending on how he's garbled the concept in his head, to bring the dead back to life.

(Of course it's madness to think that Genesis could restore someone dead, but, given the sales pitch of Genesis as a way of bringing life to the dead it wouldn't be a totally mad misunderstanding, just, the sort of thing that makes the scientists roll their eyes and start long paragraphs with, ``no, this is what we mean''.)
As I recall, the phrase was "life from lifelessness." That doesn't mean bringing life to the dead. There wasn't any life there to begin with, so there couldn't be anything dead to bring back to life.
Except it does exacly that.
Shat Happens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14 2014, 12:47 AM   #29
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
Their negligence set in motion a chain of events leading to Khan's escape, the destruction of three Federation starships, the deaths of three Starfleet captains (though one was restored to life), another in a long list of conflicts with the Klingon Empire, the deaths of several civilian scientists and the internal controversy spurred by the charges against Kirk and his friends for circumventing Federation policy to go to Genesis and retrieve Spock. All told, I think Starfleet Command should have put itself on trial rather than punishing Kirk (and this is coming from someone who believes the entirety of the TOS films is an illustration of Kirk's leadership-by-arrogance approach to starship command).
At first I was wondering who/what the third was, and then realized I'd forgotten about Esteban and the Grissom (shows how much of an impression he made!).
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14 2014, 01:00 AM   #30
Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: USS Reliant
Re: Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
At first I was wondering who/what the third was, and then realized I'd forgotten about Esteban and the Grissom (shows how much of an impression he made!).
That's understandable considering that he spent more time notifying Starfleet of what he was doing than actually doing it. I can't help but wonder if, in the brief few seconds that passed between his order for evasive maneuvers and Grissom's destruction, he asked Starfleet for permission to evade the BOP's torpedo and was waiting for their answer when Grissom exploded.
Clark Terrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:19 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.