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Old March 13 2014, 04:04 AM   #16
Rķu rķu, chķu
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I find this very likely. IMHO, there is no way in hell that Starfleet would ever actually destroy a planet like that. They simply don't stoop that low. That's genocide, and the Federation is above that.
Not all of the Federation, my friend.
Section 31 doesn't count.
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Old March 13 2014, 04:12 AM   #17
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Section 31 doesn't count.
Because they work behind the scenes or because they don't live by traditional Federation values?
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Old March 13 2014, 04:16 AM   #18
Rķu rķu, chķu
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

^ Because they're a rogue bunch of criminal terrorists, that's why. They don't even work for the Federation - they just do whatever they want. They're accountable to NO ONE.
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Old March 13 2014, 04:25 AM   #19
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
(S31) They don't even work for the Federation ...
Debateably they don't work for the Federation's governing body, however they do work for the Federation itself, unofficial protectors.


Push The Button wrote: View Post
I read about a deleted scene ...
I've never heard of this scene. Was it filmed and then discarded, or was it from a preliminary script?


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Old March 13 2014, 04:39 AM   #20
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
(S31) They don't even work for the Federation ...
Debateably they don't work for the Federation's governing body, however they do work for the Federation itself, unofficial protectors.
No, actually, they don't, because - like I said - Section 31 don't answer to the Federation. Section 31 does, quite literally, whatever it wants to. That's not "working for" anybody, by any definition of the phrase.
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Old March 13 2014, 04:43 AM   #21
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
No, actually, they don't, because - like I said - Section 31 don't answer to the Federation. Section 31 does, quite literally, whatever it wants to. That's not "working for" anybody, by any definition of the phrase.
I think T'Girl's trying to say that they work toward advancing Federation interests despite not being an official part of their government. Sort of like militia groups claiming to be acting in defense of the United States.
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Old March 13 2014, 04:45 AM   #22
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

Sci wrote: View Post
For whatever it's worth, the novel A Time to Kill established that the Eminiar Amendment to the Federation Charter had banned the destruction of a planet (and by default rescinded General Order 24) by the time of TNG.
Let's hope it's not the death of them one day. There's some dangerous stuff out there.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Because they're a rogue bunch of criminal terrorists, that's why. They don't even work for the Federation - they just do whatever they want. They're accountable to NO ONE.
That's what the Federation wants you to think
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Old March 13 2014, 04:48 AM   #23
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
(S31) They don't even work for the Federation ...
Debateably they don't work for the Federation's governing body, however they do work for the Federation itself, unofficial protectors.


Push The Button wrote: View Post
I read about a deleted scene ...
I've never heard of this scene. Was it filmed and then discarded, or was it from a preliminary script?


Orionpressfanzines lists it as an "unaired scene" from an earlier version of the script, so not sure if it was actually filmed or not:

This dialogue between Scotty and McCoy was trimmed as well. Scotty has already gotten the command from Kirk to implement General Order 24 and has moved the Enterprise out of range of Eminiar's planetary defense systems:

INT. BRIDGE

Scott is sitting silently in the command seat. McCoy stands by, staring sympathetically at him. There is a long moment of silence.

McCOY
Are you going to do it?

SCOTT
You heard the captain. The order was clear.

McCOY
They'll die down there.

SCOTT
Blast you, McCoy! Don't you think I know that?

McCoy stares at him, shakes his head, turns away and stands there silently, staring at nothing. The bridge is totally silent.
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Old March 13 2014, 04:56 AM   #24
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

IMO, Starfleet would not hesitate to have the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few if there was an imminent threat on a solar system/galactic scale that was truly irrefutable and truly imminent...however, of course it would not be SOP, and I wonder if a Captain of a Star Ship would be given sole decision-making ability...unless at the utmost end of need with no ability to confirm or communicate...

...hmmmm....sounds like a pretty good premise for a movie!?!?!?
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Old March 13 2014, 05:17 AM   #25
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

Sisko poisoned the entire biosphere of planet and nothing ever became of it. Only something like a general order 24 would have saved his ass from a war crimes trial.

How did that man sleep at night? I am sure a maquis camper or elder died as a result of the WMD attack. Since Starfleet info on the maquis was grossly inadequate it was never a morally correct assumption to believe they could evacuate a civilian population before ill health or death set in.
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Old March 13 2014, 05:26 AM   #26
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

HIjol wrote: View Post
IMO, Starfleet would not hesitate to have the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few if there was an imminent threat on a solar system/galactic scale that was truly irrefutable and truly imminent...however, of course it would not be SOP, and I wonder if a Captain of a Star Ship would be given sole decision-making ability...unless at the utmost end of need with no ability to confirm or communicate...

...hmmmm....sounds like a pretty good premise for a movie!?!?!?
Yes, but it's also similar to the premise that gave us "The Alternative Factor," with Kirk being the sole man on the front lines against an impending invasion of his universe by the inhabitants of the anti-matter universe-- and the certain total, complete annihilation that was sure to follow.
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Old March 13 2014, 09:43 AM   #27
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

The TOS heroes never shied away from genocide. Nipping the enemy in the bud and being done with it was a sound and solid tactical approach, at least when dealing with the Space Amoeba, the Doomsday Machine, the Dikironium Cloud, the Salt Vampire...

You get the picture. Saying that genocide is bad is pretentious and disgusting if it's only supposed to apply on cuddly things like humans.

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Old March 13 2014, 10:43 AM   #28
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

nightwind1 wrote: View Post
Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
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No way to ever know. The 24th century is gone...
I don't know what this means.
I'm pretty sure it's a dig at JJ-Trek.
Huh? I love the Abramsverse films. My point was that no more live-action material is coming where the 24th century is concerned.

So there is no way we'll ever know.
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Old March 13 2014, 10:55 AM   #29
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

Well, Spock Prime can always utter a few illuminating phrases about how things were so much better back when he was only middle-aged, two centuries in the future...

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Old March 13 2014, 11:02 AM   #30
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Re: Does General Order 24 exist in TNG?

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
HIjol wrote: View Post
IMO, Starfleet would not hesitate to have the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few if there was an imminent threat on a solar system/galactic scale that was truly irrefutable and truly imminent...however, of course it would not be SOP, and I wonder if a Captain of a Star Ship would be given sole decision-making ability...unless at the utmost end of need with no ability to confirm or communicate...

...hmmmm....sounds like a pretty good premise for a movie!?!?!?
Yes, but it's also similar to the premise that gave us "The Alternative Factor," with Kirk being the sole man on the front lines against an impending invasion of his universe by the inhabitants of the anti-matter universe-- and the certain total, complete annihilation that was sure to follow.

Agreed, but in "The Alternative Factor", Star Fleet was aware and had time/impetus to send Kirk investigate...and his "final solution" did not destroy or kill...
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