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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old March 12 2014, 04:42 AM   #61
Clark Terrell
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Re: The Pegasus

Komack wrote: View Post
Just watched "the Pegasus" (spelling?) for the first time in 20 years. I was bothered by Picard's decision to inform the Romulans of the cloaking technology - is it really the place of a Starship Captain to decide whether or not his superiors have made a sound/moral/correct decision in violating a treaty and developing a new technology?
It is if said superiors have broken the law and precipitated an incident that could lead to interstellar war. Picard did exactly what he was supposed to in that situation. It's not his fault that Pressman (and others at Starfleet) orchestrated a conspiracy to smuggle illegal technology back to Federation space, but he would have been to blame had he allowed them to get away with it.

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
I haven't seen the episode in ages, but I have to agree with Komack. It may have been illegal, but that's something that should have been sorted out internally. Unless it was to defuse an escalating situation (which may have been the case, I don't remember), then Picard shouldn't have taken it upon himself to expose matters of Federation/Starfleet policy/security to a rival power.
I don't see that he did. He ordered a message sent to the Romulans that their government would be contacted about the incident, but nothing else was revealed to them onscreen.

DonIago wrote: View Post
I suppose it's possible that the treaty stipulated that such potential situations must be reported immediately by the commanding officer(s) present on the scene.
Makes sense to me and explains why Picard took the actions he did.
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Old March 12 2014, 05:10 AM   #62
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Re: The Pegasus

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
In your hypothetical, the primary purpose of the device is to be used as a a weapon. In my cases, they're neither weapons (although they may have weapons applications, which are not covered under the treaty per se) nor defenses of any kind in their primary uses.
True, a cloak is not itself a weapon - yet the treaty still bans it. Weaponization is not the key factor; capability is.

Your lawyer in my hypothetical would argue that the flashlight gun is primarily a flashlight, at least until it is used primarily as a gun. So if secondary/primary purpose is the test, how do you determine which is which?
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Old March 12 2014, 05:15 AM   #63
Clark Terrell
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Re: The Pegasus

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
Your lawyer in my hypothetical would argue that the flashlight gun is primarily a flashlight, at least until it is used primarily as a gun. So if secondary/primary purpose is the test, how do you determine which is which?
This is where establishing the user's intent would be important. Just about anything can have potential as a weapon if its user's disposition is one of aggression and hostility.
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Old March 12 2014, 05:49 AM   #64
GalaxyX
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Re: The Pegasus

Mojochi wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
I don't think anyone mentioned this, but why not just have Picard and the Enterprise pretend that they are helpless inside and ask the Romulans to set them free?

Then deny any questions about any phase/cloak technology once out, and once they can get the hell out of there, Picard can deal with the situation strictly between himself and Starfleet?
Because it was not an offer on the table. The offer on the table was that the Romulans would beam the entire Enterprise crew aboard the Romulan vessel, take them back to Romulus as "Guests" for a while, in which case they would get both ships, any other option, as Donlago pointed out above would likely result in "Accidental" destruction or disabling of the Enterprise which would end in the same result
So then Picard could refuse the help, bring up the shields to max, and cut himself out of the asteroid with phasers. Even with the danger of a collapse, it's not really a danger as I don't see a bunch of rocks causing any major issues with the shields up. Then to the Romulans, you just cut your way out of an asteroid, no phase cloak needed.
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Old March 12 2014, 07:30 AM   #65
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Re: The Pegasus

Um...if Our Heroes weren't in any real danger upon being trapped in the asteroid, why did they act like they were? It's not like it was an act to fool the Romulans; they're trapped before Riker and Pressman even go over to the Pegasus.
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Old March 12 2014, 05:11 PM   #66
PhoenixClass
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Re: The Pegasus

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
Your lawyer in my hypothetical would argue that the flashlight gun is primarily a flashlight, at least until it is used primarily as a gun. So if secondary/primary purpose is the test, how do you determine which is which?
This is where establishing the user's intent would be important. Just about anything can have potential as a weapon if its user's disposition is one of aggression and hostility.
That depends on what level of intent is involved. The treaty seems to forbid the use (perhaps even possession) of cloaking devices by the Federation - period. They even needed special permission to use a cloaking device on the Defiant in the Gamma Quadrant in DS9. So, it seems that the treaty doesn't say, no possession with intent to use aggressively or something to that effect.
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Old March 12 2014, 11:52 PM   #67
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Re: The Pegasus

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
I don't think anyone mentioned this, but why not just have Picard and the Enterprise pretend that they are helpless inside and ask the Romulans to set them free?

Then deny any questions about any phase/cloak technology once out, and once they can get the hell out of there, Picard can deal with the situation strictly between himself and Starfleet?
Because it was not an offer on the table. The offer on the table was that the Romulans would beam the entire Enterprise crew aboard the Romulan vessel, take them back to Romulus as "Guests" for a while, in which case they would get both ships, any other option, as Donlago pointed out above would likely result in "Accidental" destruction or disabling of the Enterprise which would end in the same result
So then Picard could refuse the help, bring up the shields to max, and cut himself out of the asteroid with phasers. Even with the danger of a collapse, it's not really a danger as I don't see a bunch of rocks causing any major issues with the shields up. Then to the Romulans, you just cut your way out of an asteroid, no phase cloak needed.
Worf suggests that, & (Per the usual) gets shot down, when Data says the asteroid's internal structure is unstable. Cutting into the blocked entrance with phasers could likely cause the entire chasm to collapse, crippling & burying the ship deep inside an asteroid about half the size of a small moon, which was the reason Picard formally protested taking the ship in there to begin with. The shields might protect against hull breach during the collapse, but they'd still be trapped, & I doubt shield integrity would hold up for long if there's a gravity to the asteroid, that caused the collapse & thereafter is pressuring them.

DonIago wrote: View Post
Um...if Our Heroes weren't in any real danger upon being trapped in the asteroid, why did they act like they were? It's not like it was an act to fool the Romulans; they're trapped before Riker and Pressman even go over to the Pegasus.
Actually, the Romulans fire on the entrance while Riker & Pressman are aboard the Pegasus, until then, they still had an exit
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Old March 13 2014, 02:03 AM   #68
Clark Terrell
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Re: The Pegasus

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
That depends on what level of intent is involved. The treaty seems to forbid the use (perhaps even possession) of cloaking devices by the Federation - period. They even needed special permission to use a cloaking device on the Defiant in the Gamma Quadrant in DS9. So, it seems that the treaty doesn't say, no possession with intent to use aggressively or something to that effect.
No, it doesn't say that. But my point wasn't about what the treaty said or didn't say but rather whether a cloaking device in and of itself represents a weapon.
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Old March 13 2014, 04:22 AM   #69
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Re: The Pegasus

Mojochi wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Um...if Our Heroes weren't in any real danger upon being trapped in the asteroid, why did they act like they were? It's not like it was an act to fool the Romulans; they're trapped before Riker and Pressman even go over to the Pegasus.
Actually, the Romulans fire on the entrance while Riker & Pressman are aboard the Pegasus, until then, they still had an exit
Ah, my bad. Still, the point remains.
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Old March 13 2014, 08:14 AM   #70
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Re: The Pegasus

They were in danger because the Romulans were not going to just sit there forever waiting for a federation rescue party, they would have fired on the asteroid until the cave collapsed and cruised off knowing the federation flagship was dust.
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Old March 13 2014, 02:34 PM   #71
Robert Comsol
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Re: The Pegasus

Kronos wrote: View Post
They were in danger because the Romulans were not going to just sit there forever waiting for a federation rescue party, they would have fired on the asteroid until the cave collapsed and cruised off knowing the federation flagship was dust.
And I thought they were just conducting incompatible experiments and the Enterprise-D would have become collateral damage.

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Old March 13 2014, 06:31 PM   #72
BK613
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Re: The Pegasus

What technology is covered by the treaty would depend a great deal on how narrowly (or broadly) the term "cloaking technology" is defined. Since we aren't privy to that definition....we are left with angels, pinheads, and dancing.
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Old March 13 2014, 06:36 PM   #73
DonIago
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Re: The Pegasus

Even if the treaty left loopholes it's possible the Federation wouldn't make a point of deliberately poking at them specifically because they found peace with the Romulans preferable to other options.
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Old March 14 2014, 12:55 AM   #74
Armored Saint
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Re: The Pegasus

BK613 wrote: View Post
What technology is covered by the treaty would depend a great deal on how narrowly (or broadly) the term "cloaking technology" is defined. Since we aren't privy to that definition....we are left with angels, pinheads, and dancing.
I hardly see Romulan diplomats being opened to this kind of semantic consideration. Even if the Romulans didn't shot your ass with disruptors or plasma torpedoes, you will open the pandora box with the Klingons, the Ferengis, the Cardassians, etc
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Old March 15 2014, 02:16 PM   #75
BK613
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Re: The Pegasus

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
BK613 wrote: View Post
What technology is covered by the treaty would depend a great deal on how narrowly (or broadly) the term "cloaking technology" is defined. Since we aren't privy to that definition....we are left with angels, pinheads, and dancing.
I hardly see Romulan diplomats being opened to this kind of semantic consideration. Even if the Romulans didn't shot your ass with disruptors or plasma torpedoes, you will open the pandora box with the Klingons, the Ferengis, the Cardassians, etc
Let me clarify by making explicit what I thought was implicit:
"What technology is covered by the treaty would depend a great deal on how narrowly (or broadly) the term "cloaking technology" is defined by the treaty itself."
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