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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.23%
A 161 21.50%
A- 101 13.48%
B+ 83 11.08%
B 59 7.88%
B- 27 3.60%
C+ 40 5.34%
C 38 5.07%
C- 25 3.34%
D+ 11 1.47%
D 13 1.74%
D- 10 1.34%
F 37 4.94%
Voters: 749. You may not vote on this poll

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Old March 10 2014, 12:18 AM   #4981
JarodRussell
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

The friendship simply isn't well executed. They had two films, and it's still just "huh, we're supposed to be friends, right." Look at other films were two opposite strangers become good friends in just one or two films.
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Old March 10 2014, 01:19 AM   #4982
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I think the filmmakers were just trying to stretch out the formula from the first film because of how popular that was among audiences. Instead of showing Kirk and Spock as they would likely interact after a whole year in space working together, they repeat the beats from the first film by having the two not understanding each other all that well, even though they're supposed to be "friends" by this point. It's kind of like CASINO ROYALE ending with Bond having fully formed into the character we've come to know in the series, only for the next film to tell us "oh no, his arc isn't quite finished yet" because the first one was so well received they want to recapture that. Thus we get STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS that ends the same way the last film ended.
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Old March 10 2014, 01:46 AM   #4983
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
What bothers me most about the movie . . . is the lack of characterization . . . If JJ says "it's about the relationships" and then clearly spends time making an action film about the story, then it's a bait-and-switch.
What both of Abrams' films rely upon pretty heavily -- despite being very carefully crafted to convey as clearly as possible that this is not your father's Trek -- is prior knowledge of the characters and their relationship. Kirk and Spock are conceived and delivered (and in an unusual and somewhat painfully ham-handed way in ST09, we're explicitly told that they are) a destined dramatic unit in the same sense as Alfred and Bruce Wayne, or Sherlock Holmes and Watson.

Within those parameters, the relationship between Kirk and Spock actually does take center stage. Their arcs are the most clearly conceived and delivered elements of either film's stories: ST09 is about them learning about and accepting their shared "destinies" (ugh), STiD is about them learning to fully understand and accept their friendship.

But yes, it's quite true that we are told about more than we're shown the foundations of their relationship to a degree that's unusual even for a reboot; STiD in particular seems to rely on us reading an implied now-long-standing friendship into an onscreen relationship that doesn't really feel like longstanding friendship.

They don't seem to be making Kirk very likable or competent.
I think he's likable enough*, but I'm mystified from what we see of him why everyone seems to have so much faith in him as a leader of men (apart from the fact that we as the audience are meant to cut him a break because of course He's The Main Character). I think this is a flaw in the conception of the NuTrek crew as a whole: they've been thrown together like a superhero team with an inherent "right" to their positions, but as likeable as they are separately, they don't feel believable as a competent, disciplined crew of a ship.

* More than this, I think his relative rawness, lack of discipline and seat-of-the-pants style is actually a believable outcome of his changed backstory. It's just not believable that they keep putting him in command of their "flagship" with those qualities.

Outside of Admiral Marcus creating a super ship, there is nothing of note or makes any logical sense. . . And then the nods, ripoffs during the key moments of the movie. . .
These are the biggest problems for me by far: the massive, sometimes seemingly deliberate illogic of the stories (and settings and character concepts), and the mistaking of clever reference and fan-service for good writing. I don't mind clever reference or fan-service, mind you, but they're not a substitute for a story that makes sense.
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Old March 10 2014, 03:10 AM   #4984
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I guess we must define humanity and friendship very differently if you can't find it in the new movies.

But of course, if you don't like something, you're not exactly likely to view any aspect of it in a positive light.
The keywords were: show friendship, express feelings, not just talk about it. They use old Spock with his words of "destiny" to establish relationships. This way is much easier than think about effective dialogs and actions.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
The friendship simply isn't well executed. They had two films, and it's still just "huh, we're supposed to be friends, right." Look at other films were two opposite strangers become good friends in just one or two films.
Yes, totally agree.
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Old March 10 2014, 03:23 AM   #4985
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

But they did show Kirk and Spock's friendship in ID. You just aren't seeing it.
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Old March 10 2014, 03:50 AM   #4986
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
But they did show Kirk and Spock's friendship in ID. You just aren't seeing it.
It's not that some don't see it, it's that they don't find it all that convincing.
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Old March 10 2014, 03:33 PM   #4987
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
It's really that destiny angle that harms it for me. They're told by Spock Prime that they're meant to be friends, so it's like "we're friends huh" "yeah". It already doesn't come off like genuine friendship to me, but with the whole destiny angle it only really drives home how false their friendship feels. It's like how the Star Wars prequels try to drive home that Anakin and Padme are in love, but I'm not getting any of that no matter how much they say "I'm so in love with you!".
I think Prime Spock has the clearest and deepest lines about Kirk and Spock. Is that a mistake? Yes. Let it happen organically. Don't change Kirk's mind because old Spock told him that Young Spock should be his friend. What bothers me more than this, is that Kirk is too self-centered to have the type of relationship promised in Star Trek (2009) by Leonard Nimoy.

This Kirk knows how to do one thing well: rely on his own instincts to get things done. I said awhile back that they needed the Conference table--why did Kirk stun their ride on the planet? He wasn't briefed on the mission and, therefore, he couldn't tell that was his ride.

Kirk does this all alone now. And that's not the job of a Captain. What's the point of having all this talent on the Enterprise if you never listen to anyone? This is why I say he's not likable. He's arrogant; he thinks he's infallible. And that was fine for the first movie. He's young and we never saw a young Jim Kirk. But somewhere along the way, the rough edges need to be smoothed. How you write that into a script? Apparently, you have him lose as many people as possible on the Enterprise and have him take responsibility for things that are out of his control. He flies off half-cocked and almost loses his ship because he's bent on revenge. Still, he saves everyone by not listening to anyone but himself. Scotty says "don't do it!" and he does it anyway. Does he need to listen to Scotty in that moment? No. But it's consistent with a character that knows only how to do one thing.

I'm a basketball fan so I'm going to make an analogy. This is a superstar that doesn't trust his teammates. The reason Allen Iverson could lead the NBA in scoring all those seasons and never win a Championship, or sniff anywhere near the second of four rounds, is because he never relied on his teammates. He tried to do it all himself. Anyone who tried to get him to not take 30 shots a game (where 18-20 would've been better, using him as a decoy to break down defenses) is because he only knew how to play one way. He's the only player on the court.

Meanwhile, someone like Tim Duncan has 4 rings. He's never led the league in scoring. He's been MVP, but it was controversial when he won it. He's the centerpiece, but other players like playing with him.

Kirk doesn't rely on his team. And, therefore, I never see greatness in him. For all of his abilities, he doesn't know not to stun his ride. He's got the broad strokes--a home-run hitter that can't get on first base--but he doesn't work within the team concept.

With one movie to go, I don't see this changing in time for the next movie (unless we never see the change, the most interesting arc for Kirk). Considering they will probably only do 3 movies, I don't think this is going to be a likable or great Captain. "But that was another life."
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Old March 10 2014, 03:39 PM   #4988
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
This Kirk knows how to do one thing well: rely on his own instincts to get things done. I said awhile back that they needed the Conference table--why did Kirk stun their ride on the planet? He wasn't briefed on the mission and, therefore, he couldn't tell that was his ride.
Or he was in the heat of the moment and got startled by a giant animal? Geez. It seems no one wants these people to act fucking HUMAN.
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Old March 10 2014, 03:43 PM   #4989
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
This Kirk knows how to do one thing well: rely on his own instincts to get things done. I said awhile back that they needed the Conference table--why did Kirk stun their ride on the planet? He wasn't briefed on the mission and, therefore, he couldn't tell that was his ride.
Or he was in the heat of the moment and got startled by a giant animal? Geez. It seems no one wants these people to act fucking HUMAN.
I want someone professional in his job. Training gets rid of things like nerves, because you can rely on the training. You seem to forget they are doing a job.
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Old March 10 2014, 03:46 PM   #4990
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
This Kirk knows how to do one thing well: rely on his own instincts to get things done. I said awhile back that they needed the Conference table--why did Kirk stun their ride on the planet? He wasn't briefed on the mission and, therefore, he couldn't tell that was his ride.
Or he was in the heat of the moment and got startled by a giant animal? Geez. It seems no one wants these people to act fucking HUMAN.
I was someone professional in his job. Training gets rid of things like nerves, because you can rely on the training. You seem to forget they are doing a job.
No I don't. The animal was obviously startled and up on two legs McCoy was behind it so Kirk couldn't see him. Just because that type of animal was suppose to be their ride doesn't mean that particular animal was their ride.

Stun or possibly get trampled? I'm going to go with stun every single time and twice on Sunday's.
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Old March 10 2014, 03:49 PM   #4991
HaventGotALife
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Or he was in the heat of the moment and got startled by a giant animal? Geez. It seems no one wants these people to act fucking HUMAN.
I was someone professional in his job. Training gets rid of things like nerves, because you can rely on the training. You seem to forget they are doing a job.
No I don't. The animal was obviously startled and up on two legs McCoy was behind it so Kirk couldn't see him. Just because that type of animal was suppose to be their ride doesn't mean that particular animal was their ride.

Stun or possibly get trampled? I'm going to go with stun every single time and twice on Sunday's.
You forget his reaction to McCoy. It's not "I know I was going to get trampled." He instead says, "Oh, Great!" like he didn't know what he had done. Why did McCoy have no idea what he took?
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Old March 10 2014, 03:50 PM   #4992
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I want someone professional in his job. Training gets rid of things like nerves, because you can rely on the training. You seem to forget they are doing a job.
Yeah, it's the kind of error you'd expect at best from a talented but very inexperienced officer.

Which to be fair is exactly what NuKirk is. Everything about him really does make sense... except his being a Captain at this stage of his life.
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Old March 10 2014, 03:56 PM   #4993
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
You forget his reaction to McCoy. It's not "I know I was going to get trampled." He instead says, "Oh, Great!" like he didn't know what he had done. Why did McCoy have no idea what he took?
Or it could have been "Oh, Great!", I fucked up?
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Old March 10 2014, 04:00 PM   #4994
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
You forget his reaction to McCoy. It's not "I know I was going to get trampled." He instead says, "Oh, Great!" like he didn't know what he had done. Why did McCoy have no idea what he took?
Or it could have been "Oh, Great!", I fucked up?
That would be inconsistent with the character they are writing.
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Old March 10 2014, 04:04 PM   #4995
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
You forget his reaction to McCoy. It's not "I know I was going to get trampled." He instead says, "Oh, Great!" like he didn't know what he had done. Why did McCoy have no idea what he took?
Or it could have been "Oh, Great!", I fucked up?
That would be inconsistent with the character they are writing.
It really isn't. It's inconsistent with how you interpret the character.
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