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Old March 5 2014, 07:09 PM   #1171
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Ethics are subjective, the law is clearly written and maintained.

For example some consider abortion unethical but abortion is legal in many places. So it is entirely possible to think someone acted in an (un)ethical way yet (dis)obyed the law.
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Old March 5 2014, 07:11 PM   #1172
Vandervecken
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

zarkon wrote: View Post
Vandervecken wrote: View Post
Sorry, not false at all. In the scenario I gave you, the people locked to the gurneys are already locked to the gurneys and hooked up for draining, just as Tuvix's creation had already happened. And they absolutely WILL die if you do nothing.

Since Tuvok and Neelix COULD be brought back, then they are not wholly dead, really--just like the people on the gurneys.
They are wholly dead though. That they can be brought back is a product of voyager technobabble. It's basically the same as magic here. They are not suffering in some twilight world, unless I have forgotten something from the episode - it has been a while since I saw it.
I guess this is a Miracle Max situation. They were mostly dead, whatever that means. The fact that they CAN be brought back means they are not completely dead, by definition. Dead is dead--no return.
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Old March 5 2014, 07:17 PM   #1173
zarkon
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
I guess this is a Miracle Max situation. They were mostly dead, whatever that means. The fact that they CAN be brought back means they are not completely dead, by definition. Dead is dead--no return.
It's pretty much at the crux of the ethics issue though, and if I recall correctly, this was never made into any kind of an thing within in the episode itself - that tuvok and neelix were somehow "sleeping" within Tuvix. Had the episode utilised that, I would not make such a strong ethical argument(on legal grounds it's still abundantly clear either way of course).

Without that factor, it's pretty much the same as getting them back by casting a magical spell that kills Tuvix, so I remain of the view that doing nothing was the correct ethical decision.
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Old March 5 2014, 07:19 PM   #1174
Vandervecken
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Ethics are subjective, the law is clearly written and maintained.

For example some consider abortion unethical but abortion is legal in many places. So it is entirely possible to think someone acted in an (un)ethical way yet (dis)obyed the law.
MacLeod, the law is subjective as well. it's created by men, and sometimes it's wrong, too, and sometimes the ethical thing to do is to disobey it. And I'm not even thinking of the abortion debate--that was never in my head as I've been posting here, although I recognize that many others bring these bags of preconceptions to the table. It's also entirely possible to obey the law to the letter and do the wrong thing, ethically. The fact that a law is written on paper changes nothing. It was illegal in slave states in the US to hide runaway slaves. What was the ethical thing to do?

But in this case, the truth is we don't even have the law to guide us. Do we have any idea of what Federation law is on this subject? How is it we can even begin to apply 21st century jurisprudence to this situation? Janeway and her officers were in uncharted legal territory--even for the Federation. So the best we can do is to fall back on our ethical/moral compasses, so to speak. That's all we can do. And my conclusion, always, in every single post in this thread, was that killing Tuvix is murder, and leaving Tuvok and Neelix "mostly dead" is murder as well, if they're forever left in that state of non-being.
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Old March 5 2014, 07:22 PM   #1175
Vandervecken
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

zarkon wrote: View Post
Vandervecken wrote: View Post
I guess this is a Miracle Max situation. They were mostly dead, whatever that means. The fact that they CAN be brought back means they are not completely dead, by definition. Dead is dead--no return.
It's pretty much at the crux of the ethics issue though, and if I recall correctly, this was never made into any kind of an thing within in the episode itself - that tuvok and neelix were somehow "sleeping" within Tuvix. Had the episode utilised that, I would not make such a strong ethical argument(on legal grounds it's still abundantly clear either way of course).

Without that factor, it's pretty much the same as getting them back by casting a magical spell that kills Tuvix, so I remain of the view that doing nothing was the correct ethical decision.
And it was a magical spell that disappeared Tuvok and Neelix and created Tuvix. Why is that spell alright? Plus I simply don't agree with you on the dead issue.

We're going to have to disagree, that's all.
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Old March 5 2014, 07:36 PM   #1176
Vandervecken
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Vandervecken

you think you've demolished something? All you've done is demonstrate zero reasoning capacity
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent". Yet again, you have proven Asimov's quote to be true.

As for what I - and others - have proven:
That is obvious to every non-morally challenged person; not having quite a few delusions helps, too.
Simply put, ethics (medical ethics) shows that Tuvix has the right to live, to his own body and any doctor is morally obligated to respect these rights. Indeed, not killing a person (child/whatever) in order to save comatose people in need a transplants is a murder only in your world divorced from reality.

As for yourself - I know, you cannot properly process such information, but using transparent straw-men, rhetoric, calling facts you don't like ridiculous/etc - or pretending what you've written a few posts ago doesn't exist any longer (lol) - proves nothing.
Nothing about the subject at hand, that is; it proves quite a lot about you.

You keep mentioning the Doctor as the person to murder Tuvix - despite me previously pointing this out to you. Apparently, even mentioning Janeway in this context by you is to be avoided.
You do at least realize that's quite pathetic, yes?

I realize you're pathetic. I realize you're a liar. I also see you have a weak arguer's penchant for non-sequiturs, as the highfalutin' quote of yours from Foundation has nothing to do with this argument. I certainly took no refuge in violence of any sort. You like the sound of the quote, and want to show off. And you call me pathetic? Really, really sad.

And anyone reading this thread can see that you're a lair. You have repeatedly lied about the contents of my posts. In every single one I have made it clear that I consider BOTH directions to be murder. YOU'RE the one who would have no problem harvesting organs from two unwilling donors to save one person.

You've proven nothing, except that you've made it crystal clear you would leave two mortally wounded people to die. As you've continued to lie about my assertions, I have tried to accord your non-arguments some measure of adult respect and have dealt with them--easily.

Simply put, ethics--medical ethics--do NOT make it clear that Tuvix has a right to live at the expense of two other lives. Too bad, so sad, you lose. It is anything but clear. You keep conveniently ignoring that every single atom that went to make up Tuvix comes from Tuvok and Neelix. THAT makes a difference. That's not "whatever." it's "whatever" to you because you're out of your depth and don't really know how to respond.

I am not the one erecting straw men, that's your gig. YOU'RE the one who is attributing statements and conclusions to me that I've never made, attributions that anyone who wants to go back and read this thread can see are outrageous lies. To quote Asimov more appropriately from Foundation, in this matter, you've become "a blood-blind bull."

I didn't discuss Janeway not as any kind of deliberate omission, but just because it was easier to write about one person acting or not acting. You're not telling me anything new when you write that Janeway made the decision. The fact that you hold up this petty particular as some sort of argument trophy is additionally pathetic, as who makes the decision (one way or the other) hardly matters to the ethics of the decision.

Gosh, what's next? Did I misspell something?
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Old March 5 2014, 07:46 PM   #1177
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Vandervecken

Let's see - ad personams, insults. the usual demolished non-sense. Same old, same old.

Let's try an experiment:
Dude, you do realize all your straw-men/rhetoric/etc are in support of Janeway's act of murdering Tuvix.
At times, you even got carried away by your rhetoric and said directly what option your twisted morals support (the option of not killing Tuvix is barbaric, and this attribute is not applicable to you, etc).
But, because you came from time to time with a dictum that you support neither option, you actually think any reader is fooled as to your - let's euphemistically call them questionable morals? lol.
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Old March 5 2014, 08:01 PM   #1178
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

So here's a question - what if killing Tuvix to bring back Tuvok and Neelix would have no effect, but Our Heroes were able to determine that subjecting -someone else- to the procedure would restore them?

"Ensign Kim, you're less valuable than Tuvok and Neelix, so off you go."

Some people here seem to be faulting Tuvix for having a strong enough sense of self-preservation that he doesn't want to undergo a risky procedure that may yield no tangible gains. Would Random Crewman X be any more willing to sacrifice themselves in such circumstances?

Hell, would Janeway...or Kes...put their money where their mouths are?
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Old March 5 2014, 08:02 PM   #1179
Vandervecken
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Vandervecken

Let's see - ad personams, insults. the usual demolished non-sense. Same old, same old.
Yep same old same old mischaracterizations from you. And would you care to go back and see where the insults began? That's you, boychik, and they're continuing here with your non-response.


Let's try an experiment:
Dude, you do realize all your straw-men/rhetoric/etc are in support of Janeway's act of murdering Tuvix.
Nope. In the first place, you were the only one to erect straw men, and how--lying your head off about what I've written.

And in the second place, I realize nothing of the kind about my effective arguments, which, by the way, utterly annihilated your unreason. I repeatedly stated, from the first, that killing Tuvix was ALSO murder. LEARN TO READ, AND LEARN TO QUOTE.

The fact that I eventually posted more to support the fact that inaction to save Tuvok and Neelix is ALSO murder is because YOU took the opposite position. As far as you were concerned, in all your posts, Tuvok and Neelix were NOT persons, and Tuvix was. But at NO time did I write that killing Tuvix is the "better" choice.


At times, you even got carried away by your rhetoric and said directly what option your twisted morals support (the option of not killing Tuvix is barbaric, and this attribute is not applicable to you, etc).
Once again, you can only be DELIBERATELY misinterpreting my words, as I made it clear in nearly every post in this thread that both actions would be murder.

Look, bud, you were the one who started this epithet throwing with the Mengele business, so you can get off that high horse now.


But, because you came from time to time with a dictum that you support neither option, you actually think any reader is fooled as to your - let's euphemistically call them questionable morals? lol.
I'll leave it to readers to decide for themselves. Donno, do YOU think your outright lying has fooled them? Because anyone can go back and read what I've written, and it is clear as clear that I did NOT advocate killing Tuvix--from the beginning. That's YOUR straw man.

What I did was "demolish" your arguments, as you would put it. I'M not the one trying to fool anyone here. That's you, with your outright lying about what I've written. I suppose that shouldn't surprise me--you must be aware that only lying will save your empty and shallow "arguments." And MY morals are fine. I'M not the one who thinks leaving two mortally injured people to die is not the same as murder. I'M not the one who has made argument after argument in favor of harvesting organs from UNWILLING donors.

That's you, and it's all yours.
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Old March 5 2014, 08:07 PM   #1180
Vandervecken
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

DonIago wrote: View Post
So here's a question - what if killing Tuvix to bring back Tuvok and Neelix would have no effect, but Our Heroes were able to determine that subjecting -someone else- to the procedure would restore them?

"Ensign Kim, you're less valuable than Tuvok and Neelix, so off you go."

Some people here seem to be faulting Tuvix for having a strong enough sense of self-preservation that he doesn't want to undergo a risky procedure that may yield no tangible gains. Would Random Crewman X be any more willing to sacrifice themselves in such circumstances?

Hell, would Janeway...or Kes...put their money where their mouths are?
I just want to point out that I NEVER made an argument in one direction or the other based on the "value" of a person. Just so it's clear I'm not "some people."
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Old March 5 2014, 08:16 PM   #1181
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Vandervecken

You know, since some posts ago, I realized I can predict pretty accurately your response. Not your phrasing, of course, but your main 'ideas'.
Apparently, once one knows your delusions/quirks, one can input a stimulus and get an expected response in turn, from you. Like playing an accordion. You would make an excellent subject for a psychiatric study in self-delusion and protection mechanisms.

This is why I've said in my last post 'Let's try an experiment'. I wanted to see whether your reactions will change/stop being utterly predictable if I make you aware that what followed is merely cheese for the rat in the maze and not the substance of my post.
Your reaction - utterly predictable. Like a human yo-yo.

Curious. But creepy.
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Old March 5 2014, 08:55 PM   #1182
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
And it was a magical spell that disappeared Tuvok and Neelix and created Tuvix. Why is that spell alright? Plus I simply don't agree with you on the dead issue.
It's not alright, but it happened, and its aftereffects have to be dealt with. But the second time round, the "magic" would be intentional, not an accident.

For the dead issue, all I can do is judge it on what the episode gave us.

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
We're going to have to disagree, that's all.
Looks like.
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Old March 5 2014, 09:08 PM   #1183
Vandervecken
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Vandervecken

You know, since some posts ago, I realized I can predict pretty accurately your response. Not your phrasing, of course, but your main 'ideas'.
Apparently, once one knows your delusions/quirks, one can input a stimulus and get an expected response in turn, from you. Like playing an accordion. You would make an excellent subject for a psychiatric study in self-delusion and protection mechanisms.

This is why I've said in my last post 'Let's try an experiment'. I wanted to see whether your reactions will change/stop being utterly predictable if I make you aware that what followed is merely cheese for the rat in the maze and not the substance of my post.
Your reaction - utterly predictable. Like a human yo-yo.

Curious. But creepy.
I like cheese, by the way, rat.

Do you believe you've said anything different in the last few posts? Different from your first 1 to 3 posts? You've done nothing but 1) restate your own, morally bankrupt position, and 2) misstate my well-thought out and entirely spot-on position. Pssst, boychik, the reason my responses have been largely the same has been because your posts have been largely the same. Especially the repetitive lying part.

I saw your post and responded to it. Congratulations: you caused someone to respond to your "writing." Wow, now that's unusual stuff for a posting board. You may now audition for the part of the Professor in a live-action version of Felix the Cat.

Do you actually imagine that your little pose here as some sort of master manipulator--someone responded to your nth repetition of the same garbage with the same stuff, oh my! What an achievement! Call NIH, grants are coming!--is something new? I've seen self-congratulatory shits like you write the same, tired, desperately sad and pseudo-intellectual dross all over the Internet, little pep talks for their unimportant and scared -of-real-life selves. It's the stuff teenage boys with acne who probably have never been laid and have been repeatedly beaten by stronger kids write, because they're powerless little shits and want to feel powerful for at least a moment. Good grief, what are you, 15? I know I stopped quoting Foundation well before I was 20; nobody was impressed then, and you're not impressing anyone now.

Maybe you should have some fun outside for a while? Your magnifying glass is waiting and some nearby ants have a date with destiny.
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Old March 5 2014, 10:30 PM   #1184
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

If you two weren't quoting each other in every post, you only would have made 2 pages while I was sleeping instead of 5.

The Mengele episode was Almost Human.

The Nazi episodes were The Killing Game.

The Ethics question was answered when Ransom deleted the EMH's Ethical subroutines in Equinox.

Have you wondered about life expectancy?

Tuvok was going to live another 200 years, and Neelix another 40 maybe.

So maybe that meant that Tuvix had another hundred years left?

Which is 2/5's of what Tuvok plus Neelix had going for them.

Quantity of life can be more important than quality of life.
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Old March 6 2014, 05:22 AM   #1185
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Which is why Kes's feelings should have meant NOTHING. She is but a moth.
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