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Old March 4 2014, 09:21 PM   #16
Vandervecken
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Re: DEADLOCK and ambiguous dialogue

david g wrote: View Post
Thanks for the transcript, Christopher! Here's the dialogue I have been puzzling over:

TUVOK: I am curious, Captain. Before the Vidiians attacked, when you were in disagreement with the other Captain about
JANEWAY: Would I have given the order to self-destruct our ship? I've gone over that moment a thousand times in my mind. The truth is, yes, I would have given the order. But I will admit, there was a part of me that could see her point of view.
TUVOK: One could say that you were both the doubter and the doubted. I do not envy the paradox of logic you were faced with in that situation.

I guess what confuses me is that Janeway says she would have given the same order. "BUT," she "admits," that "there was a part of me that could see her point of view." In other words, she would have given the same order while mainly siding against giving such an order? Is she saying the other Janeway gave the order too readily? I'm still confused...!
I see what you're getting at. When Janeway (the Janeway talking to Tuvok here) said she would have given the same order, she is already admitting she sees the other Janeway's point of view, therefore the "but" and what follows really doesn't make that much sense.

Distilling it down to words that make the lack of sense more obvious:


"I agree with you, but I also see your point of view."

Huh?
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Old March 4 2014, 09:47 PM   #17
Melakon
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Re: DEADLOCK and ambiguous dialogue

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
Distilling it down to words that make the lack of sense more obvious:


"I agree with you, but I also see your point of view."

Huh?
Huh, what? Person A can agree with Person B without knowing why he agrees or fully understanding B's position.
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Old March 4 2014, 10:24 PM   #18
Christopher
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Re: DEADLOCK and ambiguous dialogue

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
I see what you're getting at. When Janeway (the Janeway talking to Tuvok here) said she would have given the same order, she is already admitting she sees the other Janeway's point of view, therefore the "but" and what follows really doesn't make that much sense.

Distilling it down to words that make the lack of sense more obvious:


"I agree with you, but I also see your point of view."

Huh?
Oh, I see the problem now. Yeah, she's saying that she would've given the same order as the other Janeway, so the "but" when she goes on to reiterate that understanding creates a paradox. "A is true, but A is also true."

So yeah, that is ambiguous. Sorry I didn't catch it earlier. I guess the situation was confusing enough that even the writer lost track.
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Old March 8 2014, 06:37 PM   #19
david g
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Re: DEADLOCK and ambiguous dialogue

Very grateful to you, Vandervecken, for clarifying this issue! Yes, that's precisely what I was trying to get at. Christopher, while this could be a moment of faulty writing, I actually think that what's so interesting about the exchange is the way it models the paradoxical quality of the episode's central conflicts.
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Old March 13 2014, 07:43 PM   #20
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Re: DEADLOCK and ambiguous dialogue

What's interesting otherwise though is Kim's dilemna. Perhaps we might think that his existential angst has been relieved by the Captain's pithy response, but maybe this continues to nag at his psyche for years. Might explain a few things: women, rank, KalToh, etc.
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