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Old March 4 2014, 03:36 AM   #16
Set Harth
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

Mister Fandango wrote:
Also again, it's just like Jedi can call upon and rely on the dark side of the Force
Not really, no. Part of what it means to be a true Jedi is to renounce the dark side. If you're talking about dark Jedi or fallen Jedi, that's different. But a true Jedi will not call upon and rely on the dark side. In fact, a Jedi can't simply use the dark side all the time with impunity and avoid falling due to its corruptive nature, as explained by Yoda.

Mister Fandango wrote:
Jedi != Light, just like Sith != Dark.
Jedi are defined by their avoidance of the dark side, while Sith are defined by their adherence to the dark side.
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Old March 4 2014, 03:43 AM   #17
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

Set Harth wrote: View Post
If you're talking about dark Jedi or fallen Jedi, that's different.
Exactly. Why the fuck can only the Jedi be "fallen" and what's stopping a Sith from being a "Light Sith?" The god damned Jedi do it all the time, and we've seen it happen on screen with Anakin, who often relied on the dark side of the Force to get the job done all while still. being. a fucking. Jedi.
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Old March 4 2014, 03:54 AM   #18
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

And .... those were the moments when he was least like a Jedi ... and most like a Sith. Anakin's reliance on the Dark Side as a shortcut was a major reason for his turn to evil. Slaughtering the Tuskens, especially the children, was an act of evil. Just because he was a Jedi at the time doesn't exonerate him from the atrocity, or the evil of his actions. That, by the way, was an act of passion ... a rejection of peace ... and a conflict that helped increase his "power" and "strength". A very Sith-like (in other words, evil) thing to do. Why do you think Palpatine uses Anakin's conflict with Dooku at the beginning of RotS and Luke's conflict with Vader in RotJ as ways to increase the power and Dark Side influence in his targets (Anakin and Luke, respectively)?

Jedi who are "fallen" are acting like the Sith - using the means to justify their selfish ends. A Sith who "falls" (or "rises" would be the more appropriate term) will use peace and selflessness to justify the betterment of all, even at the expense of the self.

It's telling that Anakin's ultimate act of redemption is one of self-sacrifice.
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Old March 4 2014, 05:19 AM   #19
Mister Fandango
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

Ancient Mariner wrote: View Post
And .... those were the moments when he was least like a Jedi ... and most like a Sith. Anakin's reliance on the Dark Side as a shortcut was a major reason for his turn to evil. Slaughtering the Tuskens, especially the children, was an act of evil. Just because he was a Jedi at the time doesn't exonerate him from the atrocity, or the evil of his actions. That, by the way, was an act of passion ... a rejection of peace ... and a conflict that helped increase his "power" and "strength". A very Sith-like (in other words, evil) thing to do. Why do you think Palpatine uses Anakin's conflict with Dooku at the beginning of RotS and Luke's conflict with Vader in RotJ as ways to increase the power and Dark Side influence in his targets (Anakin and Luke, respectively)?
And yet he was still a Jedi -- which is a title for someone in what is basically a religious organization -- up until the third film. And even then, I don't recall him ever saying he was becoming a Sith; it was just assumed when he became Darth Vader.

Once again, and I realize this is really tough for you to grasp but I have faith in you: Jedi/Sith = titles. Codes = religious philosophies. Individual = varied.

Good Sith can exist just as easily as evil Jedi, just as easily as evil Catholic Priests or good LeVeyan Satanists.
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Old March 4 2014, 05:55 AM   #20
Ancient Mariner
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Good Sith can exist just as easily as evil Jedi
You stated, "there's nothing inherently "evil" about [the Sith] code" and yet, an "evil Jedi" is one that is, fundamentally, acting like what is espoused by the "inherent evil" of Sith Code (rejecting peace, gaining strength and power from victory over conflicts with inferior foes to be able to act with personal - but not social - freedom). That's precisely what Anakin did when he used the Dark Side. Titles are worthless and useless in such circumstances. It doesn't matter what Anakin's title was when he slaughtered Tusken children - what mattered is that he allowed his passions, his selfishness, to dictate his actions (just as is dictated by the Sith Code you offered). Anakin was, still, technically, a Jedi when he slaughtered the Tuskens and stormed the Jedi temple in RotS and killed younglings. But in both instances, he was as inherently evil as the Sith Code itself - using his passion, his strength and power, forged from conflict, to preserve his personal freedom to act in any way he saw fit, at the expense of the freedom and lives of others, particularly children. Furthermore, when Dooku fell from the Jedi order, he used the Dark Side and the Clone Wars to increase his own power ("my powers are beyond yours, now back down"). He thought nothing of killing Jedi on Geonosis or countless being across the galaxy to achieve his own ends.

Or, in other words, acting on the inherently evil precepts of the Sith Code.

The only "good Sith" we've seen is in RotJ when Anakin sacrificed himself to save Luke (and the galaxy). Which, since his turn in RotS, is the moment when he was acting most like a Jedi.
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Old March 7 2014, 12:02 AM   #21
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Ancient Mariner wrote: View Post
And .... those were the moments when he was least like a Jedi ... and most like a Sith. Anakin's reliance on the Dark Side as a shortcut was a major reason for his turn to evil. Slaughtering the Tuskens, especially the children, was an act of evil. Just because he was a Jedi at the time doesn't exonerate him from the atrocity, or the evil of his actions. That, by the way, was an act of passion ... a rejection of peace ... and a conflict that helped increase his "power" and "strength". A very Sith-like (in other words, evil) thing to do. Why do you think Palpatine uses Anakin's conflict with Dooku at the beginning of RotS and Luke's conflict with Vader in RotJ as ways to increase the power and Dark Side influence in his targets (Anakin and Luke, respectively)?
And yet he was still a Jedi -- which is a title for someone in what is basically a religious organization -- up until the third film. And even then, I don't recall him ever saying he was becoming a Sith; it was just assumed when he became Darth Vader.

Once again, and I realize this is really tough for you to grasp but I have faith in you: Jedi/Sith = titles. Codes = religious philosophies. Individual = varied.

Good Sith can exist just as easily as evil Jedi, just as easily as evil Catholic Priests or good LeVeyan Satanists.
Name some good Sith.
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Old March 7 2014, 12:31 AM   #22
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

DDD...D Unit wrote: View Post
Name some good Sith.
Which is why I and others wouldn't mind seeing some stories about some.

I've played light-sided Sith in a few video games, as an aside. Something that is supported in the franchise despite yours and others sadly two-dimensional thinking. "Rawr, Jedi are gud and Sith are badz! So wut if some Jedi r badz even tho deys only supposed 2 be gud?! Sith kant be gud, dey's Sith!!!" That's all I'm really seeing from your "arguments."
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Old March 7 2014, 12:46 AM   #23
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

I've played light-sided Sith in a few video games, as an aside. Something that is supported in the franchise despite yours and others sadly two-dimensional thinking.
The only reason you could do that in SWTOR is because switching classes would be way too complicated.

"Rawr, Jedi are gud and Sith are badz! So wut if some Jedi r badz even tho deys only supposed 2 be gud?! Sith kant be gud, dey's Sith!!!" That's all I'm really seeing from your "arguments."
Add a bit of nuance and i agree.
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Old March 7 2014, 12:51 AM   #24
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

By the way.

Light Sith. Note, also, that even there the Sith is called an organization because, just like the Jedi, that's all it fucking is. Individuals vary, no matter how far into the sand you want to stick your heads.

As an aside, you may want to look up people like Count Von Stauffenberg or Erwin Rommel. (Hint, they were "good" Nazis.)
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Old March 7 2014, 02:15 AM   #25
Set Harth
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
what's stopping a Sith from being a "Light Sith?"
The dark side, something that true Sith are defined by. That's not Sith as a species I'm talking about there, or Sith-trooper types who are just members of an organization such as the soldiers in KOTOR. The Banite Rule of Two Sith would be an example of the template. You don't get to be a Sith Lord in that order if you're all lightsidey. Your master wouldn't permit it. The closest thing to a "Light Sith" in the Banite Sith lineage was Darth Gravid, who tried turning to the light side in some fashion but was subsequently taken out by his apprentice - because he wasn't a real Sith anymore.

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
The god damned Jedi do it all the time
No. Jedi don't fall all the time and stay Jedi. If they fall, they're not really Jedi any more, even if no one repossesses their laminated membership card.
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Old March 7 2014, 02:37 AM   #26
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

It all depends on how you define what is "Sith" and what is "Jedi". On the one hand, they're both quasi-religious orders, so a person must be initiated to be considered part of the respected orders and either choose to leave or be formally expelled to be considered to be a member no longer. On the other hand, those terms are often used as short hand for adepts of the dark and light sides respectively.

So yes, it's possible for a follower of the Sith Order to reject the dark side and seek the light while still *technically* being a Sith, just as a Jedi can fall to the dark side while still *technically* being a Jedi. But that's all it is, a technicality. An "evil" Jedi is a Jedi no more in his or her heart...but that doesn't automatically make them Sith either, just as a light side Sith by definition cannot be a true Sith at their core. But again, that doesn't make them Jedi.

It's also worth bearing in mind that not all light side force users are automatically Jedi, just as not all dark side adepts are actual Sith. Asajj Ventress was not a Sith, despite what she liked to claim. The Krath were not Sith, they just used Sith artefacts and knowledge for their own ends and were lead on by a Sith ghost. There's also a whole grey area of force users (including the original Je'daii) that do not hold exclusively to one of the other but strive for an internal balance of the two.

That said, stories centred around the Sith would give plenty of potential for good story telling and strong characters. You don't have to like what a person is doing to care about what happens to them. It's all about the execution. Just look at 'Breaking Bad'. At his core, Walter White was a nasty piece of work, but it's still a great show thanks mostly to that character.
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Old March 7 2014, 03:38 AM   #27
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Sith kant be gud, dey's Sith!!!" That's all I'm really seeing from your "arguments."
&
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
By the way.

Light Sith. Note, also, that even there the Sith is called an organization because, just like the Jedi, that's all it fucking is. Individuals vary, no matter how far into the sand you want to stick your heads.
Your first post in this thread stated, "There's nothing inherently evil in the Sith Code" ... which is, itself, the explicit mantra and interconnectedness of selfishness, conflict, strength, power and personal freedom (at the expense of freedom for all others). You weren't referring to an organization, but rather the inherently evil philosophy on which the organization was built. Anyone adhering to that code is dark ... is evil. In order for a Sith to become "light" is to reject those explicitly Dark Side (i.e. evil) values and, according to your own link on "Light Sith", those calling themselves a Light Sith - no longer adhering to that code - are no longer "pure". They were "hunted down" by the rest of the Sith for their lack of purity. Your own link also states that these "Light Sith" moved away from their code by "strengthening themselves with compassion and love". That's the redemptive quality that such a character would need to have to be the protagonist of a film - and it would fundamentally differentiate that character from being an adherent to the inherently evil Sith Code.

That would be Anakin Skywalker, by the way.

And yes, while there's a difference between strictly adhering to the dogma of an organization, and loyalty to that organization, maintaining an advocacy for the institution does not exonerate one from the evils of that institution, particularly if that person does nothing to change the institution itself. Rommel was still a Nazi. He fought for the regime that ruthlessly slaughtered millions. Defending him has a "Good (or Light) Nazi" is, to put it mildly, a dubious thing to say.
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Old March 7 2014, 03:39 AM   #28
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

There are Jedi and Dark Jedi. The Sith are basically advanced Dark Jedi in some eras.
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Old March 7 2014, 04:51 AM   #29
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
what's stopping a Sith from being a "Light Sith?"
The dark side, something that true Sith are defined by.
You mean just like true Jedi only use the light side, even though there's plenty that don't? And, as proven in my previous post, there have been Light Sith. It's a fact. Stomping your feet and trying to claim otherwise just makes you more wrong than you were to begin with. Utterly, completely, and embarrassingly wrong.

The Sith code is not evil. Individuals actions and interpretations of it can be, and most often are from all evidence we have, but it doesn't have to be. And there have been individuals who prove that to be true.

Both the Sith and the Jedi are just organizations and titles. Period. That's it. Sith != Dark Side and Jedi != Light Side. Sith = Someone in the Sith organization. Jedi = Someone in the Jedi organization.

I really, honestly have no idea why you people can't and won't grasp that, even when proven how wrong you are on the subject. I feel bad for you. I really do...

No. Jedi don't fall all the time and stay Jedi. If they fall, they're not really Jedi any more, even if no one repossesses their laminated membership card.
Except that they are, because that's what makes them a Jedi; being in the Jedi Order. Hence it being called the Jedi Order. Otherwise they're just fucking force-users.
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Old March 7 2014, 04:55 AM   #30
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Re: Star Wars Sith-centric spinoff

DDD...D Unit wrote: View Post
What exactly are we rooting for then? The Sith are evil. They aren't anti-heroes.
They can still be fascinating. Who were you rooting for in Reservoir Dogs?

It's not like there is no demand for it:





CW had at least 2 arcs with dark siders as protagonists.
Your examples do not prove a demand to the general population--the movie-going population who are the kind most likely to see another SW film.

Sith stories (anything EU) are fanboy territory with no widespread appeal. If the SW (the original) only focused on villains, 1977 would have been the beginning and end of the concept.
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