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Old February 13 2014, 11:48 PM   #76
MacLeod
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

There is no reason as to why it couldn't try the anthology route, have a set of new characters each week or every few weeks. It might not work, but it might be different
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Old February 14 2014, 12:50 AM   #77
Sindatur
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

MacLeod wrote: View Post
There is no reason as to why it couldn't try the anthology route, have a set of new characters each week or every few weeks. It might not work, but it might be different
Sure there's a reason it would be hard to go the Anthology Route.

Sets cost money, if you're changing the setting every week or so, that's an awful lot of money spent on building sets.

Also, Anthologies are hard to sell, because a network wants "bankable" characters for the audience to get attached to and tune in for

Sure, not impossible, but, considering it's already niche being Space Opera, this adds two more pretty big hurdles and the Analyses the Network does on expected return, versus investment, makes it a very hard sell indeed, as you would need to expect phenomenal ratings.
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Old February 27 2014, 05:51 AM   #78
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

Sran wrote: View Post
.

I don't know. Maybe I see Trek differently because for me, it's a window into a hypothetical future viewed the through the eyes of several groups of people over several decades of time. I don't see it as a story about a single ship and crew, nor have I ever.

--Sran
If it even remotely hung together as some sort of cohesive narrative, I'd agree.

But it doesn't. Trek is an incoherent mishmash of conflicting events and is lacking in even the most basic consistency. So continuing the 'prime' universe, no matter well intentioned, is building on a house of extremely boring cards.

What Trek got right so many years ago were the characters. The show got thousands of letters because people identified with the alienation embodied by Spock. They admired the decisive captain and the curmudgeonly doctor. Trek is Kirk, Spock and (sometimes) McCoy. That's why the new films have worked so well, because they adhere to that idea.

This doesn't mean that a Trek show about some other crew couldn't work. I'm just far less interested in it than a series about he five year mission aboard the Enterprise. I suspect that, from a commercial point of view, there isn't a big enough audience for a Trek spinoff television show. I'm not even convinced there's enough audience to sustain a show about Kirk and Spock but it seems a far better bet than the alternative.

Above all else, Trek needs to be about the people, not the setting. Nobody cares about the Federation or the geo-politics of the galaxy but they do want to see what scrapes Kirk got himself into this time.
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Old February 27 2014, 08:10 AM   #79
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

The Stig is right about Trek needing to get the characters right. But I've said this before and I'll say it again: the notion that "Trek is Kirk, Spock and (sometimes) McCoy" does not wash. Their presence or lack of it does not make it more or less a safer bet, period.

Leaving aside the fact that by far the most successful Trek show in the franchise's history was TNG, which did not feature Kirk, Spock and Bones... even bracketing that out, ironically enough, NuTrek itself is a data point here: it really contains "Kirk" and "Spock" in name only, with the core elements of the characters completely changed and "Kirk" rendered as closer to a frat boy than a great leader of men, and it rounds out the triumvirate with Uhura (McCoy is a minor character by comparison). Audiences came out to see it anyway, because most audiences -- even most Trekkies -- don't particularly give a shit about defining Trek as all about Kirk, Spock and Bones. They just want to see some space adventures and be told a halfway decent story.
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Old February 27 2014, 07:11 PM   #80
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

BigJake wrote: View Post
The Stig is right about Trek needing to get the characters right. But I've said this before and I'll say it again: the notion that "Trek is Kirk, Spock and (sometimes) McCoy" does not wash. Their presence or lack of it does not make it more or less a safer bet, period.
You're wrong about that. Having Kirk and Spock in the new films gave it the hook it needed to gain audience attention.

Leaving aside the fact that by far the most successful Trek show in the franchise's history was TNG,
Successful and largely forgotten in the public eye. Picard and Data have not endured, twenty years on, the way that Kirk and Spock have over the past fifty.

which did not feature Kirk, Spock and Bones... even bracketing that out, ironically enough, NuTrek itself is a data point here: it really contains "Kirk" and "Spock" in name only, with the core elements of the characters completely changed and "Kirk" rendered as closer to a frat boy than a great leader of men,
That's not at all true and betrays an extremely shallow viewing of the two films. Both characters are different due to circumstances but retain much of what made them so compelling. Spock's internal conflict is amplified by the extreme circumstances of the first film. Kirk still displays that potent mixture of bravado and cunning that made him such a great captain, while still learning what it is to truly lead men. We're seeing them young, not fully formed, and there is a clear through line from the new films to the Kirk and Spock we saw fifty years ago.

and it rounds out the triumvirate with Uhura (McCoy is a minor character by comparison). Audiences came out to see it anyway, because most audiences -- even most Trekkies -- don't particularly give a shit about defining Trek as all about Kirk, Spock and Bones. They just want to see some space adventures and be told a halfway decent story.
If that was even remotely true, Serenity would have been a monster hit.

In actuality, the cachet of Kirk and Spock sold audiences on the first film. The skilled execution of these younger versions fueled the appetite for the second film, which did quite a bit more money than the first. Audiences have responded to these new incarnations of Kirk and Spock, and quite strongly at that. Would I personally like McCoy to play a bigger role? Sure. That said, he was a pivotal part of STiD, far moreso than he was in many of the TOS films. I'm quite happy with the expanded role for Uhura and look forward to even more in the next installment.
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Old February 27 2014, 10:26 PM   #81
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

The Stig wrote: View Post
Having Kirk and Spock in the new films gave it the hook it needed to gain audience attention.
This is a just-so statement, and I doubt that it's really the case. The hook needed to gain audience attention was the return of the Trek brand, period. Only fandom gives a shit about what characters are helming it, the general audience does not care.

Successful and largely forgotten in the public eye.
That sounds like wishful thinking to me? I'm pretty sure the public eye remembers Picard and crew perfectly well -- they had more eyeballs during their run than any other crew -- and it certainly seems over-hasty to be pronouncing them obsolete in pop-culture terms. In fact I wouldn't be overly surprised to see them rebooted at some point in the future, given how thoroughly they got gypped on the big screen. (I mean, who can say. The one thing I've learned about any incarnation of Trek by this point is never to count it out in the long haul.)

That's not at all true and betrays an extremely shallow viewing of the two films.
Tell you what, how about we just agree to disagree on that one and simply stipulate that, owing to youth or different conception or alternate timeline influence or what-have-you, the characters in NuTrek are quite deliberately different from the classic characters (whether or not one still finds them compelling, yes?). NuKirk (likeable and charismatic though Pine is) is not personally someone I would follow on a pub-crawl, much less into a situation of life-or-death, but even if you disagree about that, the fact that he is a vastly different character from Kirk should not be in dispute. And that is my point.

They just want to see some space adventures and be told a halfway decent story.
If that was even remotely true, Serenity would have been a monster hit.
Serenity did not have the accumulated reputation and goodwill of the Trek brand backing it, so that's a false comparison. In fact it's arguably an example of the hindrances faced by a show and concept that, unlike Trek, really is dependent on having certain characters present and on the audience relating to and understanding their dynamics. A lot of Serenity would not have made sense to audiences outside Firefly's small cult base for just that reason (and the additional problem that the parent show aired for like six episodes before being cancelled); and Trek owes its long-term success to not suffering from that hindrance, precisely because its brand had the opportunity to grow beyond just being about one set of characters.

The new franchise owes a great deal of its success to its dynamic and likeable cast, and there is some nostalgic fun to the notion that Karl Urban is updating DeForrest Kelley and so on. That's not an indication that "Trek is Kirk and Spock and Bones" and nobody else. If that were true, replacing Bones in the core trifecta with Uhura would not have worked. Right?
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Old February 27 2014, 10:38 PM   #82
The Baby Stig
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

BigJake wrote: View Post
The Stig wrote: View Post
Having Kirk and Spock in the new films gave it the hook it needed to gain audience attention.
This is a just-so statement, and I doubt that it's really the case. The hook needed to gain audience attention was the return of the Trek brand, period. Only fandom gives a shit about what characters are helming it, the general audience does not care.
The Trek brand was about as valuable as mud after a decade of running it into the ground. What caught people's attention was a new Trek with the characters they actually knew and cared about.

Successful and largely forgotten in the public eye.
That sounds like wishful thinking to me? I'm pretty sure the public eye remembers Picard and crew perfectly well -- they had more eyeballs during their run than any other crew -- and it certainly seems over-hasty to be pronouncing them obsolete in pop-culture terms. In fact I wouldn't be overly surprised to see them rebooted at some point in the future, given how thoroughly they got gypped on the big screen.
Star Trek has 'the dude with the pointy ears,' not the 'bald captain' or the 'gold android.' As for potentially rebooting TNG, that would also not surprise me on the small screen, but I don't see it as a film project.

That's not at all true and betrays an extremely shallow viewing of the two films.
How about we just agree to disagree on that one and simply stipulate that, owing to youth or different conception or alternate timeline influence or what-have-you, the characters in NuTrek are quite deliberately different from the classic characters (whether or not one still finds them compelling, yes?). NuKirk (likeable and charismatic though Pine is) is not personally someone I would follow on a pub-crawl, much less into a situation of life-or-death, but even if you disagree the fact that he is a vastly different character from Kirk should not be in dispute. And that is my point.
They are different because of youth and drastically different circumstances than the previous timeline but it takes a deliberately blind eye to miss the clear similarities. Pine Kirk and Shatner Kirk are very clearly the same person, shaped by different circumstances. He's not a 'vastly different' character at all. That same all-encompassing ego, the same bravura front concealing a sea of self-doubt, the same innate cunning. It's all there.

They just want to see some space adventures and be told a halfway decent story.
If that was even remotely true, Serenity would have been a monster hit.
Serenity did not have the accumulated reputation and goodwill of the Trek brand backing it, so that's a false comparison.
I agree entirely, but you stated quite clearly that audiences 'just want to see some space adventures.' You can't now backtrack and claim you never said it.

In fact it's arguably an example of the hindrances faced by a show and concept that, unlike Trek, really is dependent on having certain characters present and on the audience relating to and understanding their dynamics. A lot of Serenity would not have made sense to audiences outside Firefly's small cult base for just that reason (and the additional problem that the parent show aired for like six episodes before being cancelled); and Trek owes its long-term success to not suffering from that hindrance.
Trek was a tired and broken franchise when these films were announced and it was because the films went back to TOS and resurrected Kirk and Spock at a younger time in their lives that it picked up any kind of steam at all. That Paramount rejected a Trek offshoot 'war picture' set during the Romulan wars paints an even starker picture of Trek's viability from the studio POV outside of the Kirk/Spock dynamic.
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Old February 27 2014, 10:54 PM   #83
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

The Stig wrote: View Post
The Trek brand was about as valuable as mud after a decade of running it into the ground.
That is quite obviously not true, and the facts of NuTrek's reception do not bear it out. Given fresh wrapping and impetus and a bigger budget, the brand turns out to have had plenty of goodwill left to it -- that's exactly why reviewers were so explicitly forgiving about ST09's admitted flaws and relative nonsensicality, because it was fun and it was good to see Trek back again. A great many of them said it precisely that way and sometimes in so many words.

To skip ahead a bit:

Trek was a tired and broken franchise when these films were announced
... because the TNG crew were wasted on films that didn't fit them and they went (at least) one spin-off show too far, yes.

and it was because the films went back to TOS and resurrected Kirk and Spock at a younger time in their lives that it picked up any kind of steam at all.
It was because of the concept of a reboot that the franchise gained new energy. There were any number of ways to do a reboot, and while I appreciate that you were probably excited that it resurrected Kirk and Spock -- a lot of people in fandom were, and the idea certainly felt fresh after years of the Bermagaverse -- but the general audience does not care about the specifics. You are projecting if you think they do. They don't.

Star Trek has 'the dude with the pointy ears,' not the 'bald captain' or the 'gold android.'
Star Trek has Starfleet. It's been thirty years since it was solely identified with "the guy with the pointy ears."

Pine Kirk and Shatner Kirk are very clearly the same person, shaped by different circumstances. He's not a 'vastly different' character at all.
I think you underestimate how "vastly different" the same person shaped by different circumstances can be.

I agree entirely, but you stated quite clearly that audiences 'just want to see some space adventures.'
I stated that that's what audiences want from Trek. That they're more willing to go to Trek for this than to a less well-known brand is not news.
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Old February 28 2014, 11:33 PM   #84
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

TNG has been selling quite well as far as it's remastered Blu Ray's are concerned. So I don't know where the idea that it was "long forgotten" comes from. I say that as a huge fan of the original crew, too. TNG has a big audience.


Star Trek is not cemented to just one ship, just one crew. It can break out from there if the story is compelling, the visuals interesting, and the characters, above all else, well written.
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Old March 1 2014, 01:29 AM   #85
Jonny
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

Count wrote: View Post
the lunatic (janeway)


Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Parminder Nagra.
Good choice as far as a female Captain is concerned. I think she could pull of at least being a member of the crew if not Captain.

Another woman I think could be a good choice for Captain could be Marg Helgenberger.

But then I am a C.S.I fan so I might be biased here.

urbandefault wrote: View Post
The next woman captain? Harry Kim.

It was bound to come up eventually.
That's mean but still
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Old March 1 2014, 03:12 AM   #86
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

The Stig wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
The Stig is right about Trek needing to get the characters right. But I've said this before and I'll say it again: the notion that "Trek is Kirk, Spock and (sometimes) McCoy" does not wash. Their presence or lack of it does not make it more or less a safer bet, period.
You're wrong about that. Having Kirk and Spock in the new films gave it the hook it needed to gain audience attention.

Leaving aside the fact that by far the most successful Trek show in the franchise's history was TNG,
Successful and largely forgotten in the public eye. Picard and Data have not endured, twenty years on, the way that Kirk and Spock have over the past fifty.

which did not feature Kirk, Spock and Bones... even bracketing that out, ironically enough, NuTrek itself is a data point here: it really contains "Kirk" and "Spock" in name only, with the core elements of the characters completely changed and "Kirk" rendered as closer to a frat boy than a great leader of men,
That's not at all true and betrays an extremely shallow viewing of the two films. Both characters are different due to circumstances but retain much of what made them so compelling. Spock's internal conflict is amplified by the extreme circumstances of the first film. Kirk still displays that potent mixture of bravado and cunning that made him such a great captain, while still learning what it is to truly lead men. We're seeing them young, not fully formed, and there is a clear through line from the new films to the Kirk and Spock we saw fifty years ago.

and it rounds out the triumvirate with Uhura (McCoy is a minor character by comparison). Audiences came out to see it anyway, because most audiences -- even most Trekkies -- don't particularly give a shit about defining Trek as all about Kirk, Spock and Bones. They just want to see some space adventures and be told a halfway decent story.
If that was even remotely true, Serenity would have been a monster hit.

In actuality, the cachet of Kirk and Spock sold audiences on the first film. The skilled execution of these younger versions fueled the appetite for the second film, which did quite a bit more money than the first. Audiences have responded to these new incarnations of Kirk and Spock, and quite strongly at that. Would I personally like McCoy to play a bigger role? Sure. That said, he was a pivotal part of STiD, far moreso than he was in many of the TOS films. I'm quite happy with the expanded role for Uhura and look forward to even more in the next installment.
THIS.

The Stig has nailed it in a way that I wish that I could, and people need to just accept the facts he's presented and stop blasting the new movies by saying that they aren't as good as the original series.
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Old March 1 2014, 03:16 AM   #87
BigKrampus
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
people need to just accept the facts he's presented
The Stig is a nice fellow whose opinions I respect, but they don't rise to the level of "facts." And I've already responded to his post.

And you seriously need to relax. I'm not kidding.
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Old March 1 2014, 03:46 AM   #88
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

But I am relaxed. And all that I'm doing is agreeing with the Stig. If you want, I'll throw this in as a sign of goodwill; (or if you prefer, this: )
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Old March 3 2014, 03:07 AM   #89
Sran
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
But I am relaxed. And all that I'm doing is agreeing with the Stig. If you want, I'll throw this in as a sign of goodwill; (or if you prefer, this: )
His point is that Stig's opinions are just that, opinions. That someone says something over and over doesn't make it true.

--Sran
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Old March 7 2014, 01:03 AM   #90
Merry Christmas
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Re: Captain of the next Trek series

The Stig wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
They just want to see some space adventures and be told a halfway decent story.
If that was even remotely true, Serenity would have been a monster hit.
Okay, add air the pilot as the first epiosde, airing the episodes in their intended order, actually advertize the show, and don't preempt randomly the scheduled showings.

Maybe then it will be a "monster hit."

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