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Old February 23 2014, 04:43 AM   #286
Forbin
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

I don't know why they even bothered - people tested the gun-in-a-vacuum routine as well as the gun underwater routine decades ago. Pretty sure I've read about both tests in one or another of the gun magazines I've been buying for 30 years. A cartridge is basically factory sealed and everything it needs to explode is contained inside the shell, whether the shell is in a vacuum, underwater or being deep fried.

Firefly got that wrong, btw, when Jayne declared he had to fire his gun from inside a spare, pressurized space suit.

Besides if you can't shoot a gun in space it ruins some really cool scenes in Cowboy Bebop!
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Old February 23 2014, 10:39 AM   #287
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

About guns in space: funnily enough, Russians busted this myth when they installed a 23mm aircraft cannon in one of their space stations 40 years ago and test fired it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salyut_3
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Old February 23 2014, 12:24 PM   #288
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

Forbin wrote: View Post
I don't know why they even bothered - people tested the gun-in-a-vacuum routine as well as the gun underwater routine decades ago. Pretty sure I've read about both tests in one or another of the gun magazines I've been buying for 30 years. A cartridge is basically factory sealed and everything it needs to explode is contained inside the shell, whether the shell is in a vacuum, underwater or being deep fried.
I'm sure a lot of things the Mythbusters tackle have been tested before. Doesn't mean it's not worth testing on their own and showing it to their audience on film.


Firefly got that wrong, btw, when Jayne declared he had to fire his gun from inside a spare, pressurized space suit.
I don't know how Firefly got the facts wrong about a fictional gun that exists centuries from now. Maybe there was something about "Vera" that DID require at atmosphere around it?
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Old February 23 2014, 03:54 PM   #289
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

^And Jayne wasn't very bright, after all. I wouldn't consider him a reliable source.
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Old February 23 2014, 04:55 PM   #290
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
I don't know why they even bothered - people tested the gun-in-a-vacuum routine as well as the gun underwater routine decades ago. Pretty sure I've read about both tests in one or another of the gun magazines I've been buying for 30 years. A cartridge is basically factory sealed and everything it needs to explode is contained inside the shell, whether the shell is in a vacuum, underwater or being deep fried.
I'm sure a lot of things the Mythbusters tackle have been tested before. Doesn't mean it's not worth testing on their own and showing it to their audience on film.


Firefly got that wrong, btw, when Jayne declared he had to fire his gun from inside a spare, pressurized space suit.
I don't know how Firefly got the facts wrong about a fictional gun that exists centuries from now. Maybe there was something about "Vera" that DID require at atmosphere around it?
Nope. Vera was just a gun. We saw she took normal-looking cartridges. It was just writers who don't know much about science (and they admitted it).
Not to mention that Jayne kept firing Vera at full auto for quite a while after the spacesuit visor shattered and the air would have evacuated.
It was juts dumb writing trying to sound clever.

Why would a spacefaring culture make a firearm that couldn't be fired in space?
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Old February 23 2014, 06:27 PM   #291
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

Forbin wrote: View Post
Why would a spacefaring culture make a firearm that couldn't be fired in space?
To be fair, why would you normally need a gun that can fire in space?

It's like saying that for a species living on a planet who's surface is 70+% water, all of our technology should work underwater.
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Old February 23 2014, 11:37 PM   #292
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

Forbin wrote: View Post
Nope. Vera was just a gun. We saw she took normal-looking cartridges.
Again, how do you know what future technology looks like or should look like? Vera may *look* like a normal gun and may *look* like it takes normal cartridges but that really speaks more to the limitations/cheapness of the props than it does the fictional futuristic gun.

It's a case of we have to take the characters for their word, Jayne -more or less their weapons/gun expert- says she needs air around her to work then she needs air around her to work. There's "something" about this futuristic weapon that requires oxygen around it.

It was just writers who don't know much about science (and they admitted it).
I think it's more a case of "playing to the lowest common denominator" and by doing so over-compensating for it to the point of it not being real. I think the Mythbusters have shown this a time or two where Hollywood over-explains or does something that wasn't necessary. Most viewers probably would have seen Vera fire in a vacuum and call "Foul!" under the misguided belief air is needed for the gun to work. Firefly compensates for this by having Vera fire from inside a space-suit and as a result do something that isn't needed.

Not to mention that Jayne kept firing Vera at full auto for quite a while after the spacesuit visor shattered and the air would have evacuated.
Air was probably still being pumped into the suit from its life-support system, Vera wasn't firing from a suit that only had the air inside of it.

Why would a spacefaring culture make a firearm that couldn't be fired in space?
As addressed above, this is hardly a fair question. Just because they're a space-fairing culture doesn't mean all of their technology has to operate in space. Maybe there's some advantages Vera had that would be nullified by being able to fire in a vacuum?
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Old February 24 2014, 01:29 AM   #293
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Again, how do you know what future technology looks like or should look like? Vera may *look* like a normal gun and may *look* like it takes normal cartridges but that really speaks more to the limitations/cheapness of the props than it does the fictional futuristic gun.
Well, I don't know about that. It seems to be speculating beyond the evidence, and form follows function, after all. But on the other hand, I do seem to recall that the FF guns made an unusual sound when they fired, not a conventional "bang," suggesting that there are some differences in their operation.


It's a case of we have to take the characters for their word, Jayne -more or less their weapons/gun expert- says she needs air around her to work then she needs air around her to work. There's "something" about this futuristic weapon that requires oxygen around it.
On the other hand... it's Jayne. I wouldn't trust him as an expert on anything. Heck, even experts can be wrong about the specifics of the things they're expert in. Remember the Mythbusters episode about the plane on a conveyor belt? To anyone who understands aerodynamics, it's obvious that the conveyor belt will have no impact on the plane's ability to take off, because the wheels contribute nothing to its thrust. And yet the pilot they hired to test the myth believed that the conveyor would prevent him from taking off. Understanding the praxis doesn't necessarily mean understanding the theory. Jayne is an "expert" at shooting guns, but that doesn't mean he knows a damn thing about how they work.


Not to mention that Jayne kept firing Vera at full auto for quite a while after the spacesuit visor shattered and the air would have evacuated.
Air was probably still being pumped into the suit from its life-support system, Vera wasn't firing from a suit that only had the air inside of it.
Doesn't work. In the vacuum of space, any air pumped into the helmet would dissipate so quickly that the conditions inside the helmet would remain essentially vacuum throughout. Heck, the air would probably just jet straight out of the hose into vacuum without spreading out to fill the space inside the helmet first, since there's nothing containing it inside the helmet.

The simplest explanation is that Jayne is an idiot. And since we know Jayne is an idiot, that's a pretty plausible explanation.
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Old February 24 2014, 03:28 AM   #294
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

I still land on the "exposition exists for a reason" square. Jayne tells us Vera needs air around her to work then that's the way it is until proven otherwise. Which I guess you could argue the decompression of the suit does but, then, we have to fall on the "air in the suit" remaining the same regardless of the reality of what would happen.

The FF guns did make a whirring or odd sound when used which does suggest something to them that means they work differently than the guns we have today. That and it's the future, so.... I still land on just because it looks like a present-day gun doesn't mean it IS and works like one.

The movie "Santa Claus vs. The Martians" features a Martian weapon that in actuality was a toy that "shot" a blast of compressed air. Yet in the movie the weapon was a standard Martian stun-gun. The logic some seem to be taking seems to be that "that gun shouldn't stun people because it only shoots compressed air!"

What it looks like is different than what it IS.
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Old February 24 2014, 03:41 AM   #295
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

The reason is that the writers got their science wrong, of course. Everything else is just trying to rationalize the mistake in-universe.


Speaking of getting science wrong... I complained about what a joke Discovery has become, and I've been thinking "Maybe the show should move to The Science Channel," which shows reruns of it a lot. But I've just been watching one of those reruns on TSC, and they're showing promos for a series about UFOs. On The "Science" Channel. (Insert facepalm meme of your choice here.)

This is why we need public television. You can't get good science programming on a network that needs advertising dollars and ratings, because programming there is always going to be a popularity contest, and fashionable pseudoscience tends to trump legitimate science. So the only reliable science programming is usually on public TV.
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Old February 24 2014, 04:22 AM   #296
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

Man, we've overthought Vera to freakin' death there didn't we? Too bad the writers didn't.
Last point: In Serenity the movie, Mal mounted a nice antique 20mm anti-aircraft gun (or reasonable facsimile) that was used at a groundside base, to the outside of Serenity's hull, and proceeded to fire it repeatedly at a Reaver ship while in interplanetary space.
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Old February 24 2014, 10:20 PM   #297
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

Retu wrote: View Post
About guns in space: funnily enough, Russians busted this myth when they installed a 23mm aircraft cannon in one of their space stations 40 years ago and test fired it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salyut_3
But how many people have heard of Salyut 3? or the firing of the gun onboard?

Plus the wiki entry doesn't give much detailing on the firing (there's not even a definitive answer on the number of firings) and the outcome.
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Old February 25 2014, 02:15 PM   #298
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

What did they fire it AT!?
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Old March 1 2014, 09:17 PM   #299
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

Here are specs on that gun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudelman-Rikhter_NR-23
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almaz#Defense_measures

"This station's Shchit-1 23 mm defense cannon was also to be replaced with an advanced Shchit-2 space-to-space cannon. The Shchit-2 was reported to be a two projectile system, although no photographs of it have ever been published and it does not appear that this system was ever installed on the station. OPS-4 was grounded when the Almaz manned program was cancelled."

Polyus of course was much larger--rather like IKON from the movie SPACE COWBOYS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyus_(spacecraft)
http://www.airspacemag.com/space/sov...758185/?no-ist
Almaz http://russianspaceweb.com/almaz.html
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Old March 2 2014, 12:14 AM   #300
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Re: MYTHBUSTERS 10th Anniversary Season

Forbin wrote: View Post
What did they fire it AT!?
Capitalist vacuum?
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