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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old February 21 2014, 06:40 AM   #91
Lance
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Re: If they had any balls...

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Yeah, I don't want the next movie to end at Earth again.

I'm so sick of Earth.
It's a double-edged sword, but I agree. I want to see "boldly going", and I too am a little sick of Earth being treated like some kind of 'home base' that the Enterprise departs and returns to at the start and end of every movie. (This applies to all the old movies as well, they aren't exempt from that.) My sincere hope is that the next movie follows through on the promise of the end of STiD, that the Enterprise and her crew are finally going to be "out there" exploring the unknown, and a long way from home territory. But then again, I had the same feeling at the end of the 2009 movie, and that turned out to be an unfulfiled expectation. So I wouldn't be surprised if the next movie begins and ends at Earth again.
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Old February 21 2014, 08:25 AM   #92
C.E. Evans
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Re: If they had any bells...

Whenever you really want to show how bad a baddie can be to everyone, have Earth be in danger, if not under direct attack.
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Old February 21 2014, 12:31 PM   #93
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Re: If they had any bells...

^ I can appreciate the dramatic shorthand of it, but it does lead to a... what would be the word? It lacks imagination. It's largely the main reason why Nemesis gets panned for Shinzon's sudden change of motivation halfway through, because although "Hahahaha, I'mma gonna destroy Earth cuz I'm EVUL!!!!!" is an easy way to 'involve' the audience in the drama, it also lacks consistent logic within the script.

My broader issue with Earth seeming to be a consistent home base in the Star Trek movies (old and new) derives more from it being a sorta kinda destruction of the original Star Trek format, because the original bible accentuated deep space isolation from Earth as being a key element of what Star Trek *is*. By all means they should feature humans, colonial bases, starbases on the fringes of Federation territory, etc. Place them under threat. But Earth itself became a bit of an easy crutch in the original movies, TOS and TNG ones alike, and I'd really like to see nuTrek wean itself away from Earth-as-dramatic-device.
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Old February 21 2014, 02:16 PM   #94
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Re: If they had any bells...

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Whenever you really want to show how bad a baddie can be to everyone, have Earth be in danger, if not under direct attack.
Strange why TWOK worked.

Or how the top film villains are from films in which Earth isn't in danger. Darth Vader, Hannibal Lecter, Hans Gruber, heck even the Terminator isn't concerned with Earth, it's about one or two individuals first and foremost.


It always baffles me when the viewers/watchers/audience adopt the limited thinking of (modern day) Hollywood producers.

Last edited by JarodRussell; February 21 2014 at 02:32 PM.
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Old February 21 2014, 02:23 PM   #95
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Re: If they had any balls...

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
The Stig wrote: View Post
[These little bon-mots are fun, but hardly representative of the actual process. Orci and Kurtzman wanted Khan from the very beginning and I've never seen them in a suit.
Please, the "actual process" is even worse, what with them creating the new character John Harrison and then turning him into Khan because "it's what everyone wanted." Seriously, they went through the process of creating and developing a new character and then abandoned him. That says loads about what to expect from them.
So you knew that what you said about 'the suits' was incorrect and said it anyway, just to be a curmudgeon? Fair enough.

And if you actually paid attention to the process, Orci and Kurtzman developed the story first to ensure that, in their mind, it worked as a standalone. They wanted to have a film that didn't depend on Khan as a crutch. It's fair game to debate on whether or not they pulled it off, but none of your comments jibe with the facts and smack entirely of trolling for effect.

In actuality, it was the first Trek film to successfully marry a relevant current-day topic to a thrilling action-adventure story.
I'm sorry, what? What relevant current day topics does STID touch upon? The movie pays lip service to terrorism, but not in any kind of profound or thought-provoking way.
Locutus touched on these in far more detail than I would have. The back and forth between Kirk and Spock on the morality of drone attacks felt exactly like classic Trek: a little too earnest and on the nose but not without some value.

I'll never stop marvelling at the sainthood fans bestow on old Trek, as if it was some towering moral treatise that spoke truth to power. STiD had more going on upstairs than most action-adventure fare at the movies last year. The same could be said for TOS. Neither were particularly courageous or affecting, but it's nice to know they tried.
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Old February 21 2014, 04:48 PM   #96
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Re: If they had any bells...

JarodRussell wrote: View Post


It always baffles me when the viewers/watchers/audience adopt the limited thinking of (modern day) Hollywood producers.
I suppose you can do so much better and ensure high box office success can you?
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Old February 21 2014, 06:09 PM   #97
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Re: If they had any bells...

anh165 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post


It always baffles me when the viewers/watchers/audience adopt the limited thinking of (modern day) Hollywood producers.
I suppose you can do so much better and ensure high box office success can you?
Why the fuck should I, I just want to watch a movie, not make it. I don't limit what I want to what bean counters think it is what I want. Why do you?



And while we're at it: nobody can ensure high box office success. What a laughable statement. If it were certain, there would be no bombs and no surprise hits.
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Old February 21 2014, 07:11 PM   #98
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Re: If they had any bells...

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
<snip>

It always baffles me when the viewers/watchers/audience adopt the limited thinking of (modern day) Hollywood producers.
That was an unnecessary dig (all the more so for having been edited in after the fact) and you ought to have known better.

anh165 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post


It always baffles me when the viewers/watchers/audience adopt the limited thinking of (modern day) Hollywood producers.
I suppose you can do so much better and ensure high box office success can you?
This comment was also unnecessary. The bit you quoted was bait which should have been left alone. Further, you ought to have known better than to respond to a general dig by upping the ante and taking a personal swipe. You've been cautioned about that on more than one occasion previously and here it will earn you a warning.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
anh165 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post


It always baffles me when the viewers/watchers/audience adopt the limited thinking of (modern day) Hollywood producers.
I suppose you can do so much better and ensure high box office success can you?
Why the fuck should I, I just want to watch a movie, not make it. I don't limit what I want to what bean counters think it is what I want. Why do you?



And while we're at it: nobody can ensure high box office success. What a laughable statement. If it were certain, there would be no bombs and no surprise hits.
Jarod, you already got a reaction with your borderline post above and ought to have left well enough alone. Since you didn't, and instead went right back at anh165 with a personal swipe of your own, you too receive a warning.

Both of you: please do better. Comments to PM.


Aaaand back to topic...
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Old February 22 2014, 01:30 AM   #99
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Re: If they had any balls...

The Stig wrote: View Post
Orci and Kurtzman wanted Khan from the very beginning and I've never seen them in a suit.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you... Bob Orci in a suit.



Check and mate, brother. I refute you thus.

Carry on.
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Old February 22 2014, 02:14 AM   #100
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Re: If they had any bells...

He's hunky.
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Old February 22 2014, 03:50 PM   #101
C.E. Evans
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Re: If they had any bells...

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Whenever you really want to show how bad a baddie can be to everyone, have Earth be in danger, if not under direct attack.
Strange why TWOK worked.
Don't think that Earth wasn't in danger. Khan had himself a weapon of mass destruction that could destroy an entire planet. No world in the Federation was safe, not even Earth.
The Stig wrote:
Orci and Kurtzman wanted Khan from the very beginning...
According to an interview at startrek.com re-posted at our own TrekToday, they didn't, but producer Damon Lindelof did.

From TrekToday:
“[Damon Lindelof] argued for Khan from the beginning and I argued against it,” said Orci.
http://www.trektoday.com/content/201...rtain-villain/

Orci and Kurtzman compromised with Lindelof; they initially wrote the story without Khan and then found a way to insert him in later.
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Old February 22 2014, 06:13 PM   #102
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Re: If they had any bells...

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Don't think that Earth wasn't in danger.
No direct threat was made to Earth at any point in the story. Earth along with numberless other planets was of course in potential danger if the Genesis technology got into the open, but that's not at all the same thing.

The simple fact is, you do not need to threaten Earth either to establish a baddie or to justify a budget. I remember Lindelof making this excuse at one point; I suspect he was parroting some network exec, but if he wasn't then it's proof positive he was every bit the hack people think he was, because it just isn't true at all.
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Old February 24 2014, 04:57 PM   #103
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Re: If they had any bells...

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Whenever you really want to show how bad a baddie can be to everyone, have Earth be in danger, if not under direct attack.
Strange why TWOK worked.
Don't think that Earth wasn't in danger. Khan had himself a weapon of mass destruction that could destroy an entire planet. No world in the Federation was safe, not even Earth.
The Stig wrote:
Orci and Kurtzman wanted Khan from the very beginning...
According to an interview at startrek.com re-posted at our own TrekToday, they didn't, but producer Damon Lindelof did.

From TrekToday:
“[Damon Lindelof] argued for Khan from the beginning and I argued against it,” said Orci.
http://www.trektoday.com/content/201...rtain-villain/

Orci and Kurtzman compromised with Lindelof; they initially wrote the story without Khan and then found a way to insert him in later.
Khan was always on their minds, since the original ending concept for Trek '09 was a shot of the Botany Bay.
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Old February 24 2014, 11:57 PM   #104
C.E. Evans
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Re: If they had any bells...

BigJake wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Don't think that Earth wasn't in danger.
No direct threat was made to Earth at any point in the story. Earth along with numberless other planets was of course in potential danger if the Genesis technology got into the open, but that's not at all the same thing.
It really is the same thing. The subtext was that Khan was a threat to everyone with a weapon of mass destruction at his disposal, including Earth, and that he had to be stopped before he used it. Otherwise, it would be irrelevant if had it.
The simple fact is, you do not need to threaten Earth either to establish a baddie or to justify a budget.
It certainly worked for the last two movies.
I remember Lindelof making this excuse at one point; I suspect he was parroting some network exec, but if he wasn't then it's proof positive he was every bit the hack people think he was, because it just isn't true at all.
That's a matter of personal opinion, but I do think that if you really want to import a major sense of danger to a large audience, it works better if Earth is threatened than with Planet X (they did that with Insurrection, and we know how that went).
The Stig wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote:
The Stig wrote:
Orci and Kurtzman wanted Khan from the very beginning...
According to an interview at startrek.com re-posted at our own TrekToday, they didn't, but producer Damon Lindelof did.

From TrekToday:
“[Damon Lindelof] argued for Khan from the beginning and I argued against it,” said Orci.
http://www.trektoday.com/content/201...rtain-villain/

Orci and Kurtzman compromised with Lindelof; they initially wrote the story without Khan and then found a way to insert him in later.
Khan was always on their minds, since the original ending concept for Trek '09 was a shot of the Botany Bay.
Actually, a shot of the Botany Bay was intended to be solely an Easter Egg and nothing more, but it was aborted because they realized it might truly force them to do an actual Khan story for Star Trek XII if they used it.

Khan was always an option (just like other stuff in Trek lore still are), but the only one who really wanted Khan in Star Trek XII from the start was Lindelof. Being that Lindelof was pretty much their boss, Orci and Kurtzman went along with it.
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Old February 25 2014, 02:21 AM   #105
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Re: If they had any bells...

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Khan was always an option (just like other stuff in Trek lore still are), but the only one who really wanted Khan in Star Trek XII from the start was Lindelof. Being that Lindelof was pretty much their boss, Orci and Kurtzman went along with it.
Lindelof is their boss? I thought in the Bad Robot hierarchy Orci was second to Abrams with Kurtzman and Lindelof somewhere further down the food chain?
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