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Old February 22 2014, 03:12 AM   #1096
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

hux wrote: View Post

Someone who understands Decartes?
You'll have to do better than that.



hux wrote: View Post
Yes, he does....demonstrably
And whose thoughts are they exactly? Tuvix? Neelix? Tuvok?



hux wrote: View Post
Now you're getting hysterical....who is to say none of that will happen...who is to say that a magic bean won't shoot out of his arse and save the human race...who

and since when did developing a mental illness mean....your existence is less valid....less real
You can be as facetious as you wish. My point is perfectly valid. He has just undergone a radical accident and has been alive for the proverbial ten minutes. It seems LIKELY that he will have stability issues and with all kinds of fusion of brain tissue, Vulcan/Talaxian blood/dna/cells etc it seems likely that something will eventually go wrong.

Also, nobody mentioned mental illness lowering the validity of existence. Those are your words not mine.



hux wrote: View Post
He doesn't need to know it...he only need possess it....Descartes considered perception of existence with a mind (as opposed to physical senses) means you exist...where you exist & what you exist as....who knows....but you do exist
I will say this again: DOES HE POSSESS IT? 'He' is a fusion of two men there is no Tuvix he is the combined face of Neelix and Tuvok. I don't quite know what you are trying to say there about Descartes. Tuvix having a mind is not a debate here, one of Descartes most basic theories is that outside of the mind is to be doubted and is very hard to prove....my point is that the mind the Tuvix possesses MUST belong to Tuvok and Neelix. It does not necessarily equate to him have an entirely different mind. In a sense he has two, neither of which are his.



hux wrote: View Post
From the Decartes point of view....they could simply be defined as dead...whereas, Tuvix exists in the here and now....his existence coming in lieu of Tuvok and Neelix doesn't reduce the validity of his existence in any way (and having the ability to bring them back also doesn't)
In what way are they dead? They are both strolling about, fused together, minds merged, as 'Tuvix'. They are far from dead. It is unclear just how dead their minds actually are.



hux wrote: View Post
Data had no birth....the doctor had no birth.....but they are eventually recognised as having consciousness....of existing....again, i go back to Descartes....consciousness means existence and Tuvix has that in abundance
They do have consciousness. Because their programs were so advanced that they could be deemed to be sentient. Again, quote Descartes all you like, we can discuss the Meditations as much as you wish. The point here, is that mind is not actually his. It belongs to Tuvok and Neelix.

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
If that is the prosecutions case then it is spurious at best.
hux wrote: View Post
No....it's actually quite profound....it demands that you accept an individual consciousness is at work....and Tuvix contradicting the (presumed) wishes of his composit hosts demonstrates that very clearly
It is impossible to know if he hears any wishes to ignore. He, as far as we see, is simply created and wishes to live. The most basic instinctual desire of any animal. It does not validate HIS consciousness as a unique one and certainly not as one that is independent of Neelix and Tuvok.

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Its not an either or situation? Are you serious? The whole point is that its exactly an either or situation! Either she saves Neelix and Tuvok or she allows Tuvix to live.
hux wrote: View Post
You're turning this into a very black and white issue which i don't think it can ever be....plus i wasn't referring to Tuvix so much as Janeway.....i'm bascially saying that you don't have to accept that Tuvix wasn't real in order to defend Janeway from the accusation of murder....they are not mutually exclusive

Janeway's decision was right (and she did not commit murder) but equally, Tuvix was very definitely real and very definitely an individual with his own consciousness
'Very definitely' again is assumptive. There is nowhere near enough evidence in the episode to completely give a definitive answer on this. We see very little of him and he wants to live....great. As any animal would.

At the end of the day, anyone who calls Janeway a murderer is bordering on hysterical and she made the most ethical, moral decision in a difficult, tragic circumstance.
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Old February 22 2014, 03:30 AM   #1097
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The only way that Tuvix is an animal, is if Neelix and Tuvok are also animals.

Janeway put him in charge of Voyager's weapons and security.

He was in charge of killing people and almost killing people.

That's not a job you want to give to someone who is soulless or deficient.
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Old February 22 2014, 03:58 AM   #1098
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

That was pretty stupid of Janeway, though a typical Star Trek thing to happen.

He should have spent his time pottering about, maybe helping the EMH so that the EMH could surreptitiously observe him.
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Old February 22 2014, 04:15 AM   #1099
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The only way that Tuvix is an animal, is if Neelix and Tuvok are also animals.
What are you talking about? Of course they are. We are all animals.

teacake wrote: View Post
That was pretty stupid of Janeway, though a typical Star Trek thing to happen.

He should have spent his time pottering about, maybe helping the EMH so that the EMH could surreptitiously observe him.
That'd have been fascinating. Perhaps signs of mental trauma could have been shown.
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Old February 22 2014, 04:19 AM   #1100
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Is "only" an animal?
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Old February 22 2014, 09:09 AM   #1101
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
hux wrote: View Post

Someone who understands Decartes?
You'll have to do better than that.



hux wrote: View Post
Yes, he does....demonstrably
And whose thoughts are they exactly? Tuvix? Neelix? Tuvok?





You can be as facetious as you wish. My point is perfectly valid. He has just undergone a radical accident and has been alive for the proverbial ten minutes. It seems LIKELY that he will have stability issues and with all kinds of fusion of brain tissue, Vulcan/Talaxian blood/dna/cells etc it seems likely that something will eventually go wrong.

Also, nobody mentioned mental illness lowering the validity of existence. Those are your words not mine.





I will say this again: DOES HE POSSESS IT? 'He' is a fusion of two men there is no Tuvix he is the combined face of Neelix and Tuvok. I don't quite know what you are trying to say there about Descartes. Tuvix having a mind is not a debate here, one of Descartes most basic theories is that outside of the mind is to be doubted and is very hard to prove....my point is that the mind the Tuvix possesses MUST belong to Tuvok and Neelix. It does not necessarily equate to him have an entirely different mind. In a sense he has two, neither of which are his.





In what way are they dead? They are both strolling about, fused together, minds merged, as 'Tuvix'. They are far from dead. It is unclear just how dead their minds actually are.





They do have consciousness. Because their programs were so advanced that they could be deemed to be sentient. Again, quote Descartes all you like, we can discuss the Meditations as much as you wish. The point here, is that mind is not actually his. It belongs to Tuvok and Neelix.





It is impossible to know if he hears any wishes to ignore. He, as far as we see, is simply created and wishes to live. The most basic instinctual desire of any animal. It does not validate HIS consciousness as a unique one and certainly not as one that is independent of Neelix and Tuvok.

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Its not an either or situation? Are you serious? The whole point is that its exactly an either or situation! Either she saves Neelix and Tuvok or she allows Tuvix to live.
hux wrote: View Post
You're turning this into a very black and white issue which i don't think it can ever be....plus i wasn't referring to Tuvix so much as Janeway.....i'm bascially saying that you don't have to accept that Tuvix wasn't real in order to defend Janeway from the accusation of murder....they are not mutually exclusive

Janeway's decision was right (and she did not commit murder) but equally, Tuvix was very definitely real and very definitely an individual with his own consciousness
'Very definitely' again is assumptive. There is nowhere near enough evidence in the episode to completely give a definitive answer on this. We see very little of him and he wants to live....great. As any animal would.

At the end of the day, anyone who calls Janeway a murderer is bordering on hysterical and she made the most ethical, moral decision in a difficult, tragic circumstance.

No there not, they simply accept that Tuvix had a right to live, and that right was taken from him against his will. Even you admit that he was definantly an indivudal with his own consciousness. So from a LEGAL point of view doesn't this individual with a consciousness have a right to live?
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Old February 22 2014, 09:54 AM   #1102
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Janeway must have murdered lots of people and things over the course of her career, so of course she's a murder whether those kills were righteous and sanctified by Federation law or not.

She was either blessed or a wussy if at that late stage in the game she was still a murder virgin.

The sentient syphilis swimming about inside Tuvix was a valued life form enough to be put back where it belonged in that episode, but a couple months later and the Captain Exterminated it with extreme prejudice, despite living inside the old Vulcan PE teacher for twice as long as she'd been alive, Janeway had the moral authority to make that decision.
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Old February 22 2014, 10:16 AM   #1103
hux
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
You'll have to do better than that.
No, not really....that’s kinda the point....I’m not saying you have to agree with Descartes but using his definition of existence, Tuvix qualifies entirely

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
And whose thoughts are they exactly? Tuvix? Neelix? Tuvok?
Well exactly....for example, the thought...”i don’t want Tuvok and Neelix to be brought back...i want to continue as Tuvix”....who does that thought belong to then?

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
You can be as facetious as you wish. My point is perfectly valid. He has just undergone a radical accident and has been alive for the proverbial ten minutes. It seems LIKELY that he will have stability issues and with all kinds of fusion of brain tissue, Vulcan/Talaxian blood/dna/cells etc it seems likely that something will eventually go wrong.

Also, nobody mentioned mental illness lowering the validity of existence. Those are your words not mine.
In a discussion about whether or not someone exists, how is it valid to point out that he may get ill (physically or mentally) that doesn’t mean anything....Neelix may get ill...doesn’t detract from his existence being real

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I will say this again: DOES HE POSSESS IT? 'He' is a fusion of two men there is no Tuvix he is the combined face of Neelix and Tuvok. I don't quite know what you are trying to say there about Descartes. Tuvix having a mind is not a debate here, one of Descartes most basic theories is that outside of the mind is to be doubted and is very hard to prove....my point is that the mind the Tuvix possesses MUST belong to Tuvok and Neelix. It does not necessarily equate to him have an entirely different mind. In a sense he has two, neither of which are his.
If i take a dump and the stool has consciousness and thinks where am i...why was i hanging out of that mans anus.....then by Descartes criteria, it exists...regardless of its origins, regardless of it’s reliance on me as progenitor, regardless of it’s imminent flushing.....IT THINKS.....IT EXISTS!

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
They do have consciousness. Because their programs were so advanced that they could be deemed to be sentient. Again, quote Descartes all you like, we can discuss the Meditations as much as you wish. The point here, is that mind is not actually his. It belongs to Tuvok and Neelix.
Mind or Brain?....you’re shifting the goal posts now and accepting that Tuvix exists but that his consciousness is borrowed. I see no evidence of that. He may have the matter of Tuvok and Neelix but his consciousness is his own....the fact that he is willing to sacrifice Tuvok and Neelix to keep it, highlights this.....and it matters not a jot that it requires Tuvok and Neelix for that new consciousness to exist

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
It is impossible to know if he hears any wishes to ignore. He, as far as we see, is simply created and wishes to live. The most basic instinctual desire of any animal. It does not validate HIS consciousness as a unique one and certainly not as one that is independent of Neelix and Tuvok.........he wants to live....great. As any animal would.
Again, these goal posts are moving.....now he does exist (phew) but his existence is simplistic (like that of an animal) and therefore can be dismissed as less valid and less real. Seems to me that you’re coming around to the fact that he exists but you want his existence to be terminated without complications so he exists but only in the most basic manner

My position is....Tuvix did exist as an independent consciousness but not as an independent life form. Janeway’s actions pose questions about the nature of consciousness and rights but cannot be classed as murder because the physical matter of Tuvix was not actually destroyed (only the consciousness) No jury would convict (but some philosophers might.....and that’s enough for the question to hang over this episode and for there to be no definite right answer....i’m not asking you to change your view, just to accept that there may be some grey area here)
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Old February 22 2014, 10:45 AM   #1104
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Janeway had to think about.

If he wasn't real, she wouldn't have had to think about it.
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Old February 22 2014, 10:51 AM   #1105
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BOOM all toasters are real boys.
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Old February 22 2014, 11:15 AM   #1106
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teacake wrote: View Post
No seriously what if LUMPS of Tuvok and Neelix were sticking out of the sides of Tuvix, what if you could see pure pieces of Tuvok and Neelix?! There is existence is being erased by the pro-Tuvix crowd because they cannot be seen. So conveniently invisible.
So, do we get to poke at the bits sticking out just to watch them wiggle?

Then by all means, Tuvix must live! Let the poking begin!
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Old February 22 2014, 01:43 PM   #1107
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

hux wrote: View Post
Again, these goal posts are moving.....now he does exist (phew) but his existence is simplistic (like that of an animal) and therefore can be dismissed as less valid and less real. Seems to me that you’re coming around to the fact that he exists but you want his existence to be terminated without complications so he exists but only in the most basic manner
In what manner are you desperate to prove he exists? Physically he is just Neelix and Tuvok. Mentally he only SEEMS to perhaps have his own thoughts. It does not necessarily make it so. Im dismissing his survival desire which is the most basic animalistic function. He does not really exist, he never did. Two people have been forced together so he 'seems' different but in reality...he is not. He is just two people.

As I said, we have no clue what is actually going on in the head, what he knows, what he thinks, what he hears. All we know is he wants to live. Because being dematerialzed and split in half is likely to be a bit scary.

hux wrote: View Post
My position is....Tuvix did exist as an independent consciousness but not as an independent life form. Janeway’s actions pose questions about the nature of consciousness and rights but cannot be classed as murder because the physical matter of Tuvix was not actually destroyed (only the consciousness) No jury would convict (but some philosophers might.....and that’s enough for the question to hang over this episode and for there to be no definite right answer....i’m not asking you to change your view, just to accept that there may be some grey area here)
If the physical matter of Tuvix was not destroyed, then why can you not make the leap to see that his mental self was not destroyed either? I acknowledge that his mind is dependent on this fusion but EVERYTHING that it is composed of is simply Neelix and Tuvok. There is no third person, the way this 'third' being is expressing itself may SEEM like a third person but the only physical and mental matter it has belong to Tuvok and Neelix.

The joy of this argument, of course, and the beauty of the episode is how grey an area and how open to interpretation it
truly is.
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Old February 22 2014, 01:59 PM   #1108
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

As said:
The number of posters de facto advocating as moral the cold-blooded killing of a person in order to chop him/her up for spare organs - against his/her express wishes - for the purpose of using these organs to save 2 persons from deep coma is shockingly high.

Tuvix is not a sapient, intelligent being now?
What non-sense. The episode went to some length to establish Tuvix as a sapient, intelligent person; his own being, separate from both Tuvok or Neelix.
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Old February 22 2014, 02:13 PM   #1109
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
In what manner are you desperate to prove he exists? Physically he is just Neelix and Tuvok. Mentally he only SEEMS to perhaps have his own thoughts. It does not necessarily make it so. Im dismissing his survival desire which is the most basic animalistic function. He does not really exist, he never did. Two people have been forced together so he 'seems' different but in reality...he is not. He is just two people.
But i don’t accept that it’s basic....i don’t see him as irrationally grasping at survival. He makes a reasoned argument for his existence. He demonstrates thought and emotion. His decision would lead to the death of Tuvok and Neelix which neither of them would want (and in doing so proves that his consciousness is separate from theirs)

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
If the physical matter of Tuvix was not destroyed, then why can you not make the leap to see that his mental self was not destroyed either?
Because we can define matter scientifically....but we can only define consciousness from a philosophical perspective and so it's more complex, abstract, murky

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I acknowledge that his mind is dependent on this fusion but EVERYTHING that it is composed of is simply Neelix and Tuvok. There is no third person, the way this 'third' being is expressing itself may SEEM like a third person but the only physical and mental matter it has belong to Tuvok and Neelix.
But that doesn’t explain his willingness to sacrifice Tuvok and Neelix. The idea that it’s from some simple survival instinct doesn’t work either. Firstly because of the reasons above and secondly because after he has made his “thoughtful” and reasoned argument, he then accepts his fate. True survival instinct would have him punching people, running down corridors, grappling with security, kicking and screaming until the last....but instead he accepts (with a reasoned mind) that his voice will go unheard

For me the deciding factor in accepting he is a separate consciousness is his willingness to sacrifice Tuvok and Neelix to keep it. The only way i would be willing to entertain the possibility that Tuvix did not possess unique consciousness (and was simply two minds combined) is if you accept that some part of Tuvok or Neelix (or both) secretly wanted to remain as Tuvix

But which one?
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Old February 22 2014, 04:10 PM   #1110
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Even you admit that he was definantly an indivudal with his own consciousness. So from LEGAL point of view doesn't this individual with a consciousness have a right to live?
This is where your argument falls apart, the only argument you can make using Legality is conjecture on your part. You don't know what is legal or not in Janeway's situation or time for that matter.

You assume it is a problem, some of us assume that it is not a problem. The evidence on our side is that Janeway got home and a couple of years later we see her promoted in rank. Where is your evidence?

Ethics is one argument but legality is a completely different argument and you have no base in canon to make that argument. Canon it would seem supports Janeway's decision.

Edited to add

Since I have already stated that in the US organ donation is illegal without the consent of the donor or a qualified representative of the donor. I thought it might be nice to know what is legal in Great Britain for MacLeod's basis for Legality

Section 43 of the HT Act gives limited exception to the requirement for consent so that the fewest number of steps may be taken after death, using the least invasive techniques, to preserve organs while consent is sought for donation; the suggested techniques are intravascular or intraperitoneal cooling. ‘Appropriate’ consent must be obtained for removal, storage and use of organs or tissues for transplantation. Consent may have been given by the donor while alive, and voluntary organ donor registration by a competent minor or adult is deemed to constitute informed consent. If the deceased had nominated a representative while he or she was a competent adult, that person can consent to donation. Otherwise, a qualifying relative may be approached to give consent. At the top of the eight-step hierarchy of qualifying relatives is spouse or partner, and at the bottom is a friend of long-standing. A child cannot have a spouse or partner, so parent is his highest qualifying relative. The HT Act accepts that there may be reasons in certain cases and circumstances to vary the hierarchy, and the urgency of finding someone to consent to donation could be such a circumstance. Consent conditional on who will receive a cadaveric donation is not accepted. There is no guidance to organ procurement in cases where consent is unobtainable, and it is important to emphasise that procurement without consent has been made unlawful.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3025214/
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