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Old February 21 2014, 07:11 PM   #1081
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
^really, you are saying your parents have had no influence on who you? Not in any way what so ever? We might not always want to admit it but our parents can play a part in who we become.
But Tuvok and Neelix are not his parents, we give our children life but they do not take our life in exchange. Tuvix has taken both of them hostage.
In order to take someone hostage (or commit a crime in any way) one must be able to consciously act. Tuvix could not consciously act to create his own life. There is not hostage-taking.

There are species that die after reproduction. Just because that isn't true of humans, doesn't mean it isn't true.

IDIC. Remember that?


MacLeod wrote: View Post
But under Federation LAW, Tuvix would be a unique indivdiual and be entitled to all the rights that the Federation bestows.
This one is only your assumption of Federation Law, in reality in the US a person cannot be forced to give up any part of their body for another, even after the donor has been declared legally dead. There has to be permission, either by the donor himself before his death, or by the next of kin afterward.
In multiple episodes of Star Trek, in all of the series, it's been made clear that all sentient life has the right to exist.

Your citation of transplant law actually works against you (not surprising, because you've never studied medical ethics, which has been made apparent by your posts in this thread).

No, organs cannot be donated without consent. While we might frown upon a child who is unwilling to give a parent a slice of her liver, we cannot compel her to risk her life to save another.

Tuvix was created by a process called symbiogenesis. Neelix and Tuvok are his parents. He cannot be compelled to give up his own life to save that of his parents.

Which is why the Doctor said, "No."
Another factor to consider is that the EMH would be controlled by ethical subrouties, rather than emotion. And yes I know when he had only time to save one person with both patients having an equal chance to survive. Shame they didn't put one into stasis r even transporter stasis so they could save both. But that wouldmean using continuity.
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Old February 21 2014, 09:38 PM   #1082
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
^really, you are saying your parents have had no influence on who you? Not in any way what so ever? We might not always want to admit it but our parents can play a part in who we become.


Ethically, Morally and Legally Tuvix had the right to choose to live. It wasn't Janeway's life to take. You might disagree with Tuvix choosing to live, but that's his right as a sentient being. He can't be held responsible for the manner in which he was created.

No one is saying that Tuvok's and Neelixcarries a risk no matter how small that something might go wrong and you might not come out the other end. In this case something did go wrong. 's life have less value than Tuvix. But like anything using the Transporter

Saying Tuvix has less to lose, is hardly a valid legal argument.
1. You are entirely missing my point. Of course my parents had an influence, however so did growing up, experiencing life etc etc. Tuvix has none of this. Other than the animalistic survival instinct he has a couple of hours of existence under his belt.

2. Ethically and Morally condemning Tuvok and Neelix to die and, for their friends and families, the pain this would cause numerous people...it could be argued that the Tuvix problem must be fixed.

3. Im struggling to fully understand that last sentence but if you are claiming the combined lives of Tuvok and Neelix are worth the same as Tuvix...I disagree. They are 'real' people. They ARE Tuvix.

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
1. You are possibly misunderstanding me. My point is that there isn't a Tuvix...there is only a fusion of Neelix and Tuvok. Descartes felt that all we can truly know is our own mind, while Tuvix is flesh and blood and sentient...is his mind his? It could be argued no, it is not.
hux wrote: View Post
You can only say there isn't a Tuvix if you measure his existence in purely physical terms (which is why i don't believe Janeway can be accused of murder...she has destroyed no such physical material) but in philosophical terms, Tuvix does exist as an individual with a unique consciousness (he thinks, therefore he is) I'm, afraid Descartes would side with me on this one
That is debatable. He is not an individual...he is Tuvok and Neelix. Who are you to claim Descartes would side with you? Does 'he' think? Who is to say after a week of life he would not begin to have a complete, delusional psychotic breakdown? Who is to say that he would not start to develop multiple personality disorder? Hell, he could become deeply troubled and even suicidal. As Descartes says, all we can know is our mind and im unconvinced Tuvix truly knows his.

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
2. We are not all hybrids. We are created by two individuals but we grow, live, develop, think and learn in ways that are unique to each of us and are not dependent on those who conceived us. Tuvix has none of this. 'Real' in this context pertains to Tuvok and Neelix having all of those qualities. And more.
hux wrote: View Post
Tuvix can grow, live develop, think and learn in a way that is independent of Tuvok & Neelix. Tuvix was a better cook than Neelix, he was already exhibiting separate skills and new thinking
Or he could simply be cooking how Tuvok would...because he IS Tuvok.

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
3. His consciousness is certainly unique....but it is still irrelevant. He simply cannot be allowed to exist due to some fabricated ethical dilemma. He has far, far less to lose than Tuvok or Neelix.
hux wrote: View Post
I agree that Janeway made the right decision but justifying it by claiming Tuvix wasn't real doesn't work...."he begged to live"....Tuvok and Neelix would not have done that if they were in control of Tuvix (this is the best evidence for his uniqueness...this is what the prosecution would hang their case on)
But he there is no Neelix or Tuvix. There is a walking, talking transporter accident. They CANT talk, share an opinion they are essential prisoners in a hybrid body. If that is the prosecutions case then it is spurious at best. He of course can THINK but his entire existence is totally dependent on being MADE of Tuvok and Neelix. He is not 'real'. He had no birth, no development, nothing. He is a transporter accident.

hux wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
4. For those who claim Janeway killed Tuvix. Would you have been ethically happier if she allowed him to live and thus 'killed' Tuvok AND Neelix?
This isn't an either/or situation.....Tuvix was a unique individual with a unique existence that was very real but Janeway's decision was the right decision and does not therefore make her a murderer....you can't convict someone of murder for destroying consciousness alone
Its not an either or situation? Are you serious? The whole point is that its exactly an either or situation! Either she saves Neelix and Tuvok or she allows Tuvix to live. [.QUOTE]

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The cop out in this episode is that as soon as Tuvok and Neelix are beamed on the sickbay bed, they are happy as ever. Tuvok even congratulates Janeway. Is would have been good to see both of them blaming her for killing Tuvix in order to save them.
Ugh I would have found that petulant, silly and totally ungrateful. Blaming her? I'd have found it more interesting if they both claimed to have 'remembered' everything that happened, seeing through his eyes etc.
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Old February 21 2014, 09:53 PM   #1083
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

But once again it comes down to the simple fact that when they used the transporter they knew (or at the very least Tuvok) knew that there was a risk that it could malfunction and something would go wrong. guess what it did and Tuvix was the result of that malfunction.

The question before the court is does Tuvix have the right to live?

Everything we know about how Federation Law works even if some of is conjecture is that yes he does.

And of course he is an individual, you say he is Tuvok and Neelix but that's not really accurate is it, if you want to follow that reasoning he is amalgamation of those two personalites which created something new and unique.
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Old February 21 2014, 10:09 PM   #1084
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
But once again it comes down to the simple fact that when they used the transporter they knew (or at the very least Tuvok) knew that there was a risk that it could malfunction and something would go wrong. guess what it did and Tuvix was the result of that malfunction.

The question before the court is does Tuvix have the right to live?

Everything we know about how Federation Law works even if some of is conjecture is that yes he does.

And of course he is an individual, you say he is Tuvok and Neelix but that's not really accurate is it, if you want to follow that reasoning he is amalgamation of those two personalites which created something new and unique.

1. I don't like this "the knew the risks" attitude. It was a freak accident by a technology that is used all the time. It doesn't give us all the right to abandon them because we are in an awkward situation. A situation that can be resolved.

2. New and unique resulting in two men who have been glued together. His entire existence is reliant on those two dying for no real reason.

Seriously, its sad but Tuvix is a tragic abomination.

Think about this:

Janeway: "Oh hi Mrs Tuvok..."

Mrs Tuvok: "Hello captain, come in, would you like something to drink?"

Janeway: "Coffee. Black...."

Mrs Tuvok: "You requested to meet me? Is everything alright?"

Janeway: "Uhh...yes...its about your husband...there has been an accident..."

Mrs Tuvok: "Is he alright? What's happened?"

Janeway: "There was a tragic malfunction with the transporter. It was a routine away mission...when we beamed up your husband with Neelix, the other member of his away party...their patterns were fused together and they rematerialized as one individual....i'm sorry..."

Mrs Tuvok: "W...what? Cant anything be done?"

Janeway: "Oh sure. We could just send Tuvix...*smiles*...that's what we call him now you see *giggles*...back through the transporter and separate them both. But..."

Mrs Tuvok: [now losing her Vulcan composure] "But what!?"

Janeway: "Eh...we kinda like him. And he said...that's Tuvix...he said he wanted to live, try out the holodeck, maybe take in a show y'know? Besides, it is bad karma and..and...Mrs Tuvok could you stop your daughter from crying? This is not easy for me."

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Old February 21 2014, 10:23 PM   #1085
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

People die in tragic accidents. It might have been a freak accident as you put it but it was an accident all the same.


Even if he was an abomination, how does not detract from his right to live?
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Old February 21 2014, 10:26 PM   #1086
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
People die in tragic accidents. It might have been a freak accident as you put it but it was an accident all the same.


Even if he was an abomination, how does not detract from his right to live?
Because of your first sentence. They aren't dead and can be easily saved. Not doing so condemns two men to a needless death.
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Old February 21 2014, 10:34 PM   #1087
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

You're still notreally the question Why Doesn't Tuvix have the right to live?

If he chooses to relinquish his life and undergo the reversal that's his right just as it's his right to refuse to undergo it.
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Old February 21 2014, 10:40 PM   #1088
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
You're still notreally the question Why Doesn't Tuvix have the right to live?

If he chooses to relinquish his life and undergo the reversal that's his right just as it's his right to refuse to undergo it.
His refusal would kill two men.
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Old February 21 2014, 10:47 PM   #1089
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

So you might find his actions reprehensible but that doesn't mean he losses the right to live.
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Old February 21 2014, 11:17 PM   #1090
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvix is like a conjoined twin, the ultimate conjoined twin.. imagine if he was only 3/4 fused and you could still see a side piece of the pure Neelix and the pure Tuvok lumpily attached to the Tuvix core body and sometimes they twitched. Then this discussion may have gone differently.
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Old February 21 2014, 11:36 PM   #1091
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
You're still notreally the question Why Doesn't Tuvix have the right to live?

If he chooses to relinquish his life and undergo the reversal that's his right just as it's his right to refuse to undergo it.
His refusal would kill two men.
A child, let's call her Abominatresse so as not to have any sympathetic feelings toward her as an individual, is asked to donate half of her liver to save the lives of her parents who are dying. They will give a slice to mom and a slice to dad.

Abominatresse refuses, because her life is at risk in the surgery.

Must she be forced to risk her life to save her parents?
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Old February 21 2014, 11:46 PM   #1092
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Depends on where this is happening.

In some countries she can be forced.

In international waters she could have been raised in a cage and never seen sunlight.

...

Tuvix happened an episode before the Doctor encountered a problem so intractable that he risked certain death for everyone on board in a lop sided space battle, so that he could ask his Vidiian girlfriend for the solution to the issue he was too thick to figure out himself.

Why wasn't the Tuvix question so dire that asking the Vidiians for the help seemed like a reaosnable idea?
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Old February 22 2014, 12:40 AM   #1093
hux
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
That is debatable. He is not an individual...he is Tuvok and Neelix.Who are you to claim Descartes would side with you?
Someone who understands Decartes?

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Does 'he' think?
Yes, he does....demonstrably

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Who is to say after a week of life he would not begin to have a complete, delusional psychotic breakdown? Who is to say that he would not start to develop multiple personality disorder? Hell, he could become deeply troubled and even suicidal.
Now you're getting hysterical....who is to say none of that will happen...who is to say that a magic bean won't shoot out of his arse and save the human race...who

and since when did developing a mental illness mean....your existence is less valid....less real

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
As Descartes says, all we can know is our mind and im unconvinced Tuvix truly knows his.
He doesn't need to know it...he only need possess it....Descartes considered perception of existence with a mind (as opposed to physical senses) means you exist...where you exist & what you exist as....who knows....but you do exist

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
But he there is no Neelix or Tuvix. There is a walking, talking transporter accident. They CANT talk, share an opinion they are essential prisoners in a hybrid body.
From the Decartes point of view....they could simply be defined as dead...whereas, Tuvix exists in the here and now....his existence coming in lieu of Tuvok and Neelix doesn't reduce the validity of his existence in any way (and having the ability to bring them back also doesn't)

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
He of course can THINK but his entire existence is totally dependent on being MADE of Tuvok and Neelix. He is not 'real'. He had no birth, no development, nothing. He is a transporter accident.
Data had no birth....the doctor had no birth.....but they are eventually recognised as having consciousness....of existing....again, i go back to Descartes....consciousness means existence and Tuvix has that in abundance

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
If that is the prosecutions case then it is spurious at best.
No....it's actually quite profound....it demands that you accept an individual consciousness is at work....and Tuvix contradicting the (presumed) wishes of his composit hosts demonstrates that very clearly

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Its not an either or situation? Are you serious? The whole point is that its exactly an either or situation! Either she saves Neelix and Tuvok or she allows Tuvix to live.
You're turning this into a very black and white issue which i don't think it can ever be....plus i wasn't referring to Tuvix so much as Janeway.....i'm bascially saying that you don't have to accept that Tuvix wasn't real in order to defend Janeway from the accusation of murder....they are not mutually exclusive

Janeway's decision was right (and she did not commit murder) but equally, Tuvix was very definitely real and very definitely an individual with his own consciousness
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Old February 22 2014, 12:44 AM   #1094
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

No seriously what if LUMPS of Tuvok and Neelix were sticking out of the sides of Tuvix, what if you could see pure pieces of Tuvok and Neelix?! There is existence is being erased by the pro-Tuvix crowd because they cannot be seen. So conveniently invisible.
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Old February 22 2014, 12:52 AM   #1095
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

This is why Descartes does not work.

Tuvix has the perspective of three minds, and can compare reality between those three to more accurately define reality as real and not mischief.

Also... Tuvok is a telepath, who has seen reality through the eyes of possibly hundreds of other peoples eyes and other senses and rationality.

And even if you don't count telepathy as an end around to Rene's first meditation.

We (Neelix and Tuvok) think therefore he (Tuvix) is.

Which is enough vantage points to triangulate truth.
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