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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old February 9 2014, 12:25 AM   #31
AgentCoop
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Re: Picard/Crusher

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
Makarov wrote: View Post
When I was a kid watching the show I definitely thought they were a couple. Now as an adult I see a bit less chemistry between them. That said I still think they end up together.
Totally agree. I thought the same, too. I never could figure out if it was because the producers themselves didn't know how to handle a Picard/Crusher romance, or if it was just the two actors had no chemistry with each other, and the idea was considered but abandoned.

I used to be of the opinion it would have been a good pairing, but now I am not so sure it would have been.

(although I would rather have seen Picard marry Vash)
Sometimes I think I am the only Trek fan than couldn't stand Vash. Her jacked up teeth just bugged me.

I agree. I never liked Vash and thought she was a terrible choice for Picard's girlfriend.
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Old February 13 2014, 09:09 PM   #32
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Re: Picard/Crusher

Ro_Laren wrote: View Post
I go the impression (mainly from the episode Attached) that Picard was always trying to hold himself back out of some sort of respect for his late best friend Jack. He felt guilty for having feelings for Beverly when Jack was alive and even after Jack died Picard felt like he was stabbing his friend in the back if he pursued a relationship with Bev.
This is it exactly, definitely what the writers were going for. Im just disappointed that they didnt pursue this line further. I'd have enjoyed seeing them get more interaction while clearly falling in love.

Beverley could have been tormented by the thought of her ex husband and how her son would react, while Picard could have wrestled with feelings of guilt, of betraying his friend and of a taboo that may effect his friendships and career.

Its such a pity they didn't go down that road. Hell, it would have been a great sub-plot in the movies instead of 300 year-old random aliens and tommy-gunning borg drones.
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Old February 17 2014, 12:43 AM   #33
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Re: Picard/Crusher

Bev was only too prepared, in NAKED NOW, to bed Picard. True, a strange alchemy was at work, but it only served to release their inner fantasies and desires. And just how long is she to mourn her husband's loss? After all ... Picard sure as hell did not authorize ENTERPRISE to Warp 10 it around the Sun to bring Jack back. He certainly had the means and and opportunity, considering some of their occassionally "random" destinations, just before closing credits on some episodes. Maybe having a cougar and an old fart making out a lot just wasn't going to get the ratings, so they just played it "safe," as infatuation. But had Bev and Johnny gone ALL the way ... I sure as hell did not want to keep hearing about "Jack, Jack, Jack ..."! Make a move and explore its potential, or not at all. Unfortunately, aching, longing and yearning is how TNG's Creative Team chose to show their discression ...
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Old February 18 2014, 09:26 PM   #34
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Re: Picard/Crusher

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
Sometimes I think I am the only Trek fan than couldn't stand Vash. Her jacked up teeth just bugged me.

I agree. I never liked Vash and thought she was a terrible choice for Picard's girlfriend.
I like Jennifer Hetrick, and I think she makes Vash charming beyond the occasionally terrible material she's given to work with in QPid. To me she's a fun match for him during his occasional holiday flirtations with pretending to be an action hero. Had they remembered her for movie!Picard, we might have been spared Anij.

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Ro_Laren wrote: View Post
I go the impression (mainly from the episode Attached) that Picard was always trying to hold himself back out of some sort of respect for his late best friend Jack. He felt guilty for having feelings for Beverly when Jack was alive and even after Jack died Picard felt like he was stabbing his friend in the back if he pursued a relationship with Bev.
This is it exactly, definitely what the writers were going for. Im just disappointed that they didnt pursue this line further. I'd have enjoyed seeing them get more interaction while clearly falling in love.

Beverley could have been tormented by the thought of her ex husband and how her son would react, while Picard could have wrestled with feelings of guilt, of betraying his friend and of a taboo that may effect his friendships and career.
I'm sure it wasn't part of any plan, but I prefer how Picard and Crusher played out to the 'mutual guilt over Jack' angle. I like that we see guilt from Picard and none from Beverly. Yet in both Allegiance and Attached Beverly's the one putting the kibosh on taking it further. Her reasons are never really explained, and their friendship is scored through with seemingly random peaks of sexual and romantic attraction without any apparent pattern. And I know that's accidental, but for me it's one of the loveliest relationships in Trek. They might end up together. They might just be BFFs. Neither outcome feels inevitable. But either way, they have a deep and mature and happy relationship.

(But then, I also think McFadden and Stewart have fantastic chemistry, and that's clearly in the eye of the beholder.)
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Old February 20 2014, 11:58 PM   #35
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Picard/Crusher

SiorX wrote: View Post
AgentCoop wrote: View Post
TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
Sometimes I think I am the only Trek fan than couldn't stand Vash. Her jacked up teeth just bugged me.

I agree. I never liked Vash and thought she was a terrible choice for Picard's girlfriend.
I like Jennifer Hetrick, and I think she makes Vash charming beyond the occasionally terrible material she's given to work with in QPid. To me she's a fun match for him during his occasional holiday flirtations with pretending to be an action hero. Had they remembered her for movie!Picard, we might have been spared Anij.

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Ro_Laren wrote: View Post
I go the impression (mainly from the episode Attached) that Picard was always trying to hold himself back out of some sort of respect for his late best friend Jack. He felt guilty for having feelings for Beverly when Jack was alive and even after Jack died Picard felt like he was stabbing his friend in the back if he pursued a relationship with Bev.
This is it exactly, definitely what the writers were going for. Im just disappointed that they didnt pursue this line further. I'd have enjoyed seeing them get more interaction while clearly falling in love.

Beverley could have been tormented by the thought of her ex husband and how her son would react, while Picard could have wrestled with feelings of guilt, of betraying his friend and of a taboo that may effect his friendships and career.
(But then, I also think McFadden and Stewart have fantastic chemistry, and that's clearly in the eye of the beholder.)
I would certainly agree with you. Obviously Stewart's qualities have been written about extensively but McFadden gives a classy, intelligent, independent yet fun personality to Beverley that I think suits Stewart [and Picard] perfectly. I always felt Picard would eventually wake up one morning next to Vash, once the fun and allure had worn off, and think "ugh...what the hell was I thinking".

I do wish Picard/Crusher had been explored more like how I mentioned in my previous post. It could have been a mature [in both senses], deep and interesting relationship. It would have added depth to the TNG cast.
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Old February 21 2014, 12:36 AM   #36
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Re: Picard/Crusher

Although Picard and Crusher work well as friends and fellow officers, I think the characters are just too similar for good romantic chemistry.

Nathan Fillion's character Richard Castle said it best,
"Yin Yang is harmony. Yin Yin is the name of a panda."

That's why I prefer Picard with Vash. Vash's brazenness complements Picard's more sedate personality perfectly creating a very compelling dynamic to their relationship. That kind of dynamic just isn't present between Picard and Crusher.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie
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Old February 21 2014, 01:11 AM   #37
2takesfrakes
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Re: Picard/Crusher

Whoa Nellie wrote: View Post
... I prefer Picard with Vash. Vash's brazenness complements Picard's more sedate personality perfectly creating a very compelling dynamic to their relationship. That kind of dynamic just isn't present between Picard and Crusher.
...AGREED!!! Yes, Vash was the equation that worked. Picard without her was like Cornflakes without the Milk! And you know, I'm really glad that he met her. We always heard about what a wild man he was in his heyday. And whilst I would've expected him to have slowed down, somewhat, by the time he met her, I don't believe he would've had a personality overhaul. Vash saw right through Picard's veneer of duty, honor and obligation and recognized the cocky bastard he really is ... deep down ... underneath ... you know?
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Old February 21 2014, 05:29 AM   #38
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Re: Picard/Crusher

Personally I think Vash was the hottest woman on TNG. That hair, man. Plus they make a good looking couple.

Although, Picard and Crusher do make a good bickering couple in All Good things. But with Vash he could end up exploring some ruins or something after he leaves Starfleet instead of just making wine.
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Old February 21 2014, 09:19 AM   #39
SiorX
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Re: Picard/Crusher

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Whoa Nellie wrote: View Post
... I prefer Picard with Vash. Vash's brazenness complements Picard's more sedate personality perfectly creating a very compelling dynamic to their relationship. That kind of dynamic just isn't present between Picard and Crusher.
...AGREED!!! Yes, Vash was the equation that worked. Picard without her was like Cornflakes without the Milk! And you know, I'm really glad that he met her. We always heard about what a wild man he was in his heyday. And whilst I would've expected him to have slowed down, somewhat, by the time he met her, I don't believe he would've had a personality overhaul. Vash saw right through Picard's veneer of duty, honor and obligation and recognized the cocky bastard he really is ... deep down ... underneath ... you know?
I don't want to get into a ship war, because ultimately it just comes down to what works for you as a viewer personally and there's no one right answer on that.

I will say though that I firmly disagree with the idea that Picard's commitment to duty, honour, and obligation is a veneer. A 'cocky' Picard (who can handwave theft, vandalism, and the destruction of most of what archaeological science holds dear for profit from a longterm partner?) is not a Picard that I'd even recognise, tbh.
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Old February 21 2014, 01:44 PM   #40
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Re: Picard/Crusher

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
And you know, I'm really glad that he met her. We always heard about what a wild man he was in his heyday.
She brings out the 'Hell bent for leather' ensign Picard. After all, the man was stabbed in the heart in a bar room brawl over what was basically a rigged pool game. Picard was the one who rigged it. Vash has him storming a castle single-handedly, all for the love of a maid.

Makarov wrote: View Post
But with Vash he could end up exploring some ruins or something after he leaves Starfleet instead of just making wine.
Exactly, The Vash character was a gold mine of untapped potential!

SiorX wrote: View Post
I don't want to get into a ship war, because ultimately it just comes down to what works for you as a viewer personally and there's no one right answer on that.
Agreed. That's why my co-author and I used to giggle at the 'Well, it's a good story, but how dare you pair Picard with Vash instead of Crusher' OTP reviews. We considered them badges of honor. If they took the time to read and review it then as writers we did something right.

SiorX wrote: View Post
I will say though that I firmly disagree with the idea that Picard's commitment to duty, honour, and obligation is a veneer. A 'cocky' Picard (who can handwave theft, vandalism, and the destruction of most of what archaeological science holds dear for profit from a longterm partner?) is not a Picard that I'd even recognise, tbh.
First we are talking about 'screen archaeologist' (Indiana Jones, River Song and such) not real modern day archaeologists.

However, that is exactly what canon shows us. According to canon, before meeting Picard on Risa Vash spent five years working as a personal assistant to Professor Samuel Estragon, an archaeologist who's work Picard knew. It was Professor Samuel Estragon who was originally hunting for the Tox Uthat. It was also Professor Samuel Estragon who hired the Ferengi Sovak to aid in his explorations, especially in situations that weren't quite ethical. Moreover, Picard isn't surprised at all and is amused by the idea. (3rd season episode Captain Holiday.)

PICARD: Any woman who can beat a Ferengi at his own game, bears watching.

Also in the 6th season episode "The Chase," Picard's own mentor Professor Galen comes aboard the Enterprise and attempts to BRIBE the captain with a Kurlan naiskos, very rare archaeological artifact, wanting Picard to leave his captaincy to become Galen's muscle.

GALEN
"... I'm sorry, Mister Picard. But that information has a price --your agreement to join me on the final leg of this expedition."

PICARD
"For how long?"

GALEN
"Three months. Perhaps a year. If we had a starship and complete diplomatic access -- a matter of weeks. But we'll have only my shuttle, the transports we can arrange, and our combined talents."

PICARD
"Why can't you do this without me?"

GALEN
"I'm not a young man. There will be hazards along the way. I don't want my own inadequacies to jeopardize the completion of this work."



In this episode Professor Galen is operating exactly the way we were told that Professor Samuel Estragon did and the way Vash did. Therefore, it is a believable extrapolation from series canon that fieldwork in interstellar archaeology can be a somewhat rough and tumble, wild wild west like business.


Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie
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Last edited by Whoa Nellie; February 21 2014 at 02:03 PM.
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Old February 21 2014, 02:36 PM   #41
2takesfrakes
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Re: Picard/Crusher

SiorX wrote: View Post
... I firmly disagree with the idea that Picard's commitment to duty, honour, and obligation is a veneer. A 'cocky' Picard (who can handwave theft, vandalism, and the destruction of most of what archaeological science holds dear for profit from a longterm partner?) is not a Picard that I'd even recognise, tbh.
This wasn't my implication at all, about his "veneer." I'm just saying that this is only the surface layer. Underneath is a man with a wild streak. A wild streak so kept in check that no one else seems to know its there, but Vash does. Not only does she recognize it, but she's very turned on by it. If Picard were just a stodgy, StarFleet Company Man, I suspect he'd have no chance at all, of getting someone like Vash. Both of them also had archeology in common, though their approaches weren't quite similar. However, at the end of the day, you're right, there's no "argument" about any of this stuff. It's all pretend. But as characters go, Vash and Picard seemed to me, and others, to compliment eachother very well. It's a shame Vash went the way of so many other assorted Guest Stars, but wow ... what a memorable impact she made! Especially, on the Good Captain.
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