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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 20 2014, 09:16 AM   #211
AverageWriter
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

" I assume Dax thinks 'Frig it, I've had eight lifetimes, I'll have another at someone else's expense"
To what do you refer? I'm not really understanding this sentence, although I would like to. The symbiont does not eliminate the host personality- it's more like a merging of thought and experience. Each lifetime becomes added to the symbiont's experiences (unless it is actively suppressed, like Joran was). The host does not vanish, he or she becomes a pair in mind and action.
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Old February 20 2014, 09:29 AM   #212
JD5000
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

In a sense, the symbiont totally eliminates the host's personality, just by merging with it. This is clearly shown in Invasive Procedures. Once you get joined, you are no longer you. You are you AND 'it'.

I never saw any evidence of Dax the symbiont fighting against Curzon's hard drinkin', womanizing lifestyle even though 6 lifetimes should have given it the wisdom to know that's a bad idea that has pretty potentially serious consequences to it's humanoid host. It's shown in canon that Curzon died having sex in Let He Who Is Without Sin... Great way to go, but it killed him.

Joran still kills people, with Dax gleefully watching the events because the experience will add to it's experience as a symbiont, when Dax totally could have made an effort to stop him.

It compels Jadzia to complete her, excuse me, Curzon's (he's dead! A long time ago!) Blood Oath with Kor, Kang and Koloth, although it's gotta know that her body has little chance of surviving, although it probably will.

It uses Ezri's memories of Jadzia's marriage to Worf give her the idea that it would be a good idea to go to the Gamma Quadrant to save his ass from the Dominion, although it could likely end up in the death of the host.

Dax has been saved from death 8 times while it's humanoid host has died, The only concern Dax has for humanoid life is when it means it's own survival.

Last edited by JD5000; February 20 2014 at 09:40 AM.
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Old February 20 2014, 09:46 AM   #213
AverageWriter
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

Except of course that it doesn't "totally eliminate the host's personality", JD5000. If that were true, then Jadzia would have ceased to be Jadzia Dax- it would simply be "Dax".

I would also venture forward that, the "hard drinkin', womanizing" lifestyle Curzon lead was indeed tempered down by the addition of Jadzia- in fact, we see, especially in the early seasons when the two were getting "acquainted", so to speak, that the Jadzia part of the symbiont was clearly in many ways in control. I saw no "hard drinking" or "womanizing" (mannizing?) from Dax during most of DS9's run.

If you're making the assertion that the symbiont should have stepped in and stopped Curzon while he was engaging in his lifestyle, that goes against your original premise that the host's personality is "totally eliminated", does it not? On the contrary, the host personality becomes dominant in every instance, while at the same time the merging gives them the memories and experience of the symbiont.

In fact, your own other example -where the symbiont is unable to control Joran's behavior- just goes to show just how much the host really is in control, despite going against Dax's wishes. I certainly didn't notice anything "gleeful" about Dax reaction- on the contrary, the symbiont clearly is disgusted and ashamed by the behavior of its former host.

As for "The only concern Dax has for humanoid life is when it means it's own survival"- I can't agree with this at all.
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Old February 20 2014, 10:01 AM   #214
JD5000
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

I think, using your own examples, is that the symbiont has the same amount of control over what happens to it as the host does. Our natural instinct is to preserve our lives. Dax hosts just 'go for it', regardless of the potential consequences to the host. It has done this 8 times and is still alive. Us humanoids only get to **** that up once.

One has to assume that there are degrees of control here. How tight you hold the reins, to use the idiom. In my opinion, Dax could have prevented Joran from ending people's lives, if it wasn't so interested in that aspect of humanity. That puts the influence of humanoid morality into serious question.

My observation is that Dax doesn't share our sense of morality, just sees it as a learning opportunity despite the cost, and I wouldn't trust it half as far as I could throw it.

Also, Average, although we disagree on some points, I appreciate your willingness to discuss the point. I really wanted to earlier today and it bugged the hell out of me all night at work that I couldn't.
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Old February 20 2014, 10:13 AM   #215
AverageWriter
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

My examples?

I didn't use any examples- I only took your own examples (which you used to demonstrate that the symbiont "totally eliminates the host personality" ) and used those examples to show how, no, the symbiont does not in fact eliminate said host personality.

The concept that Dax shows no self-restraint (or just "goes for it") doesn't seem to be borne out by her behavior during the show. She didn't just leap into bed with Julian despite his puppydogging after her quite frequently during the first season. Neither do we see her engaging in overeating, alcohol or other substance abuse or other such behavior. You provided one handpicked example of reckless behavior on Dax's part, and even that I would venture wasn't "just going for it"- Dax clearly demonstrated abilities and aptitude that prepared her for the mission during that episode.

You're just not presenting a clear argument here- it's difficult to figure out where you stand, because you seem to be shifting quite a bit.
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Old February 20 2014, 10:33 AM   #216
JD5000
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

I got one good attempt left at a thoughtful comment before sleepy-time, I'll give it a shot.

If you think my opinion of Dax the symbiont is shifty, I'm either doing a horrible job explaining it, or you simply disagree with me. Judging from the fact I have to constantly correct my own typos, I'll assume the former.

Neither of us can possibly understand Dax's motivations. Give me a reason other than it lives inside humanoids that would suggest we have similar motivations.

I provided several hand-picked examples of Dax's reckless behavior that support my view of it. Give me a little credit where it's due.

Jadzia didn't jump in bed with Bashir because he was what, 25, and Dax 'stopped counting at 300'? I had better luck in my 30's than I did in my 20's, I'd like to think a little life experience makes a person more attractive. Jadzia Dax clearly thought Bashir's advances to be a joke initially, but maybe living and working together for six years has the effect of changing that. Even though they eventually got together if you count novels as evidence more than a little heat between the sheets, they still broke it off.

Although neither host got 'the best of both worlds', Dax sure did. It got to reject and hook up with the same person with no repercussion. What a great learning experience.
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Old February 20 2014, 10:38 AM   #217
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

In my opinion, a symbiont doesn't control anything. The host personality is altered by virtue of suddenly having access to a multitude of new memories.

Dax doesn't make Ezri want to rescue Worf, or compel Jadzia to fulfill her blood oath. They do those things because they remember loving Worf and making the blood oath. Joran Dax kills people because Joran Belar did. Dax doesn't control his actions.

Verad seems very different as Verad Dax because he just went from 40 years worth of memories to 300 years worth. Ezri takes weeks to get used to the symbiont for the same reason. All the other hosts had training for what to expect. (And even then, Jadzia took quite a while to settle into her new personality.)
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Old February 20 2014, 10:44 AM   #218
AverageWriter
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

"Give me a little credit where it's due. "
Oh, I do give you credit. I just am finding it difficult to create a cogent response because I'm having a difficult time getting a foothold as to your point of view. I want to create a worthwhile response but I can't figure out if you're arguing whether or not the symbiont takes full control (since you said that earlier), whether you're arguing for shared control (since you mentioned that, too), or whether you're just saying that Dax likes to run off and get smacked with Bat'Leths for the fun of it and doesn't care because she's in someone else's skin.
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Old February 20 2014, 10:46 AM   #219
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

Maybe it's the level of control one has over the other that's the key - there's gotta be some conflict, with 2 individual consciousnesses living together like that - I'll sleep on it.

I doubt we can prove anything either way, Dax is written as a mystery. I think it's an interesting concept and worth thinking about. A little.

If I already had a cogent view on this topic, I wouldn't have been itching for the discussion. I'm still leaning towards the "Dax is a heartless asshole' side of it.
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Old February 20 2014, 04:47 PM   #220
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

I don't think we have any basis for discussing the psychology of the symbiont itself. At best, it's a vessel for the preservation of the personalities it has passed through. The key references are always to the number of hosts, the number of lifetimes, never the life of experiences of the symbiont before joining. Indeed, Invasive Procedures suggests that the humanoid personalities, if not the current humanoid host, can dominate the relationship over the non-humanoid host: Verad clearly overwhelms Dax. (Unless you are trying to argue that Dax was suicidal, which would seem inconceivable.)
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Old February 20 2014, 07:12 PM   #221
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

^ I agree that we have no basis for comparison. For me that's what makes it an interesting topic for discussion. The back-and-forth doesn't do much for the discussion as a whole, but it did help me think about my own views on the character(s). If anyone else has any thoughts, I promise that I won't try to tell you that you're wrong, because I would be wrong to do so

PS: I definitely do NOT think Dax is suicidal, quite the opposite. I think it thinks about it's own life and purpose for being here and disregards that of whichever host it happens to be living in at the time.
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Old February 20 2014, 07:58 PM   #222
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

JD5000 wrote: View Post
PS: I definitely do NOT think Dax is suicidal, quite the opposite. I think it thinks about it's own life and purpose for being here and disregards that of whichever host it happens to be living in at the time.
I mention that because at the time, Jadzia Dax et al believed that the number of compatible hosts was quite small. They should all have believed that the new Dax might die soon.
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Old February 20 2014, 08:17 PM   #223
JD5000
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

That brings up an interesting point that I read about recently in "Worlds of Deep Space Nine: Trill and Bajor"



There's a chance that a 'spoiler alert' may not be needed there, but better safe than sorry if bringing non-canon, novel stuff into the discussion.
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Old February 20 2014, 08:58 PM   #224
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

^All I know is that when it came to the biggest reveal of Jadzia Dax's character--on par with exposing Bashir as an augment or Riker's role in the Pegasus disaster--the character was asleep! A producer or writer must have thought, "There is no fucking way we can let Terry Farrell 'act' at this critical moment. Put her under!"
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Old February 21 2014, 03:51 AM   #225
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

JD5000 wrote: View Post
It is not clear, however, if the symbiont has the ability to hide this information from the host.
I would say it's very clear that Dax can hide information from the host. Jadzia had no idea that Curzon loved her until he admitted it while "linked" with Odo.
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