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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old February 20 2014, 12:26 PM   #16
hux
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

In fiction, as in life....nice people are a bit dull. Experienced writers know this so i can only assume they had an arc for Kes that would lead to something interesting but they obviously didn't know how to do that and gave up on it (occasionally they hinted at giving her a Troi type role)

She lacked sexuality and that's never good for a character either (made worse by her association with Neelix) a bit of sexual tension with.....Seska? maybe? that would have been spicy

I think Jennifer Lien is good though (she showed that in Warlord) but if the writers give you a character that's a stinker, there's not much you can do
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Old February 20 2014, 12:32 PM   #17
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
One of the points where Voyager approached distinction, in terms of the drama it brought to the table, was the flirtation that Tom and Kes had. I consider it a missed opportunity that VOY couldn't bring itself to depict Tom and Kes having an affair, at least outside the fig leaf of an alternate future. Flawed characters, thy name is not Star Trek.
When B'Elanna died in another timeline, Kes came to Tom's rescue, helping him cope with the mental anguish. She helped Tom recognize that he could and would move on - that he'd learn to fall in love, again ... because he can.



Of course, she was totally right. Tom did find love, again - and so did she: with eachother!

In fact, this episode had Kes - and the audience - review her life on Voyager, up to that point and it became clear that Kes, was indeed, more important than we realized. Because this type of support she showed not just for Tom, but the rest of the crew, is so typical of Kes. And it was vital to several characters' development on the show, particularly the EMH. In fact, the Doctor would've been incapable of offering much guidance to Seven, whatsoever, had it not been for Kes' patience, warmth and friendship.

Kes seemed to have a very good rapport with the good Captain and she was very loyal to Janeway, besides. In my view, Kes was Janeway's guide ... and her conscience. She wasn't just "all heart," either. No. Kes had a strength. In her was a power I can't pretend to understand, but one which Tuvok tried to help her master. And, because of her unique life-cyle, Kes never lost her sense of wonder at the world around her and, in fact, the entire universe. Something too easily lost and even dismissed, by most of us, in our own lives.

Unfortunately, the writers wrote all of this off in favour of a fanboy fantasy woman of the bimbo variety.
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Old February 20 2014, 12:41 PM   #18
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

hux wrote: View Post
In fiction, as in life....nice people are a bit dull. Experienced writers know this so i can only assume they had an arc for Kes that would lead to something interesting
They did. They blew her up.

She lacked sexuality and that's never good for a character either (made worse by her association with Neelix) a bit of sexual tension with.....Seska? maybe? that would have been spicy
BOY DO I EVER AGREE. Just totally lacking in sex appeal, sexuality, sexiness.. unless you fancy wide eyed sweetness and innocence which frankly icks me out when you pair it with sex appeal. Now they could have fixed that, a person can be sweet AND sexy (Ezri comes to mind) but for whatever reason they just didn't seem to know what to do with her.

I like your Seska suggestion NO really, I think that might have played well, I could see Kes trying to help her and finding herself more and more drawn to her. Seska was way smarter than Neelix and not bound by Starfleet stodge, Kes might have found her a little breathtaking..

I think Jennifer Lien is good though (she showed that in Warlord) but if the writers give you a character that's a stinker, there's not much you can do
Yes. Warlord is always a shock because the acting is great, Lien really has fun with it and it's such a shame they couldn't just LEAVE IN some of that character via magic technobabble. That would have been fun and interesting and they could have played with the gender thing too.
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Old February 20 2014, 12:48 PM   #19
2takesfrakes
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

The original poster asked to be "sold on" Kes. Let's try to be a little more positive, people!
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Old February 20 2014, 12:59 PM   #20
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

Okay..

1. Failed at being another ear alien so we got long hair which apparently many people liked.

2. Endless opportunity to bash Harry because he married her daughter in creepy Woody Allen kinda move.

3. Warlord Hotness!!!!



4. Eating for two scene was funny especially when she moved onto the flowers..

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Old February 20 2014, 01:14 PM   #21
2takesfrakes
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

..............Lynx?! LYNX?!!! Where are you, sir, when we need you The Very Most™?!
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Old February 20 2014, 01:34 PM   #22
HaventGotALife
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Kes is amazing. She's less than two years old when we meet her, but from the beginning she projects the wisdom, serenity, and self-possession of a Vulcan elder, but with deep compassion as well. She was victimized, but didn't let it break her spirit or dull her joy at discovering new things, her willingness to reach out to people and inspire them.

I wouldn't say she was "sweet," not in a Disney-saccharine way. She was kind and caring and gentle, but with an underlying poise and dignity that I found very impressive.

Granted, the writers largely wasted her character by keeping her stuck in sickbay; with her short lifespan, she should've been devouring life, eager to expand her horizons and discover everything while she could. We did see some of that in season 3, though. And she had a great rapport with Janeway, really bringing out the captain's maternal side.

And "wooden"? I can't understand that reaction. Jennifer Lien did a superb job, controlled but sincere. She did a great job when given a chance to stretch; her performance as Tieran in "Warlord" was nicely menacing and an impressive departure from her usual performance. I can't remember ever being disappointed in her acting. And she had a really beautiful voice that I just loved listening to. (She had a brief career as a voice actress after Voyager. You should hear her as Agent L in Men in Black: The Series -- an incredibly sultry and sexy vocal performance.)

And when they finally let her ditch the pixie wig and use her real hair in season 3, she looked magnificent. Particularly in that black catsuit with the velvety fabric.
I'll add to that she was earnest, but she was a nice contrast to Neelix. Neelix, early Neelix, is very hyper, full of energy and when he's mad at the Captain, he's MAD AT THE CAPTAAAAAIN!!!. She was a calming influence on him. That was part of her healing and caring personality. I remember, very early on, that she has a discussion with Neelix about a decision Janeway made to enter a section of space to explore, and she basically spells out the difference in the two schools of thought on Voyager. She had a lot of small moments to shine. Jennifer Lien made a lot with the small part they had. They made her an interesting character (Grace, powerful, a healer, empathy without being syrupy--like a grown-up version of what Troi was supposed to be) and they often used her to give added meaning to the journey of the week.
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Old February 20 2014, 01:58 PM   #23
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

Every time someone hugs her, they're rubbing her back vagina.





Sold?
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Old February 20 2014, 02:50 PM   #24
Vandervecken
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

Christopher wrote: View Post
And she had a really beautiful voice that I just loved listening to.
You beat me to it. For that alone I'd say watch and enjoy Kes.
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Old February 20 2014, 04:13 PM   #25
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

hux wrote: View Post
I think Jennifer Lien is good though (she showed that in Warlord) but if the writers give you a character that's a stinker, there's not much you can do
The problem wasn't the character. The character had enormous potential. The writers just couldn't seem to figure that out. I felt there were obvious opportunities for her character that they were missing, which is why I was so glad to get the chance to write Places of Exile in the Myriad Universes alternate-timelines miniseries and tell the version of Voyager that I always thought they should have made -- including letting Kes fulfill all the potential I saw in her.


teacake wrote: View Post
1. Failed at being another ear alien so we got long hair which apparently many people liked.
Well, kinda, but not in the way you probably mean. According to Memory Alpha, "Jennifer Lien was apparently sensitive to the make-up and adhesive used to apply her Ocampa ears. With the longer hairstyle, it was no longer necessary to apply the Ocampa ears each time she was filmed."
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Old February 20 2014, 05:38 PM   #26
hux
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

Christopher wrote: View Post
The problem wasn't the character. The character had enormous potential. The writers just couldn't seem to figure that out
Which is why i said, the writers gave us a character that was a stinker

Seems to me that there were two reasons why the writers failed to develop Kes

1 - She was too closely associated with Neelix (something that i never really understood...you've got two, new alien species to introduce into the Trek universe and you make them a couple!) Had they just been friends, then the writers may have been compelled to write for both of them (rather than writing for Neelix and just having Kes stand next to him a lot)

2 - They gave her magic brain powers (this meant they only had an interest in writing for her character when it involved doing some mind bendy type stuff) They crowbar this stuff in for a few episodes (she basically senses stuff & informs the captain)....they needed to look at her character development away from being the girl who can sense stuff....this definitely would've been much easier if she'd been separated from Neelix & free to develop relationships with other crew (especially Seska...wink wink, nudge nudge)

teacake wrote: View Post
Seska was way smarter than Neelix and not bound by Starfleet stodge, Kes might have found her a little breathtaking
I think Seska may have found a Kes exploring her confidence and sexuality equally breathtaking....they develop a friendship....Seska is curious about Ocampan relationships...Kes mentions their sexual physiology...each time Seska sees Kes, she gently strokes her back (the crew are oblivious to any of this) they're in Sandrines & everyone is chatting, playing pool....Seska is delicately caressing her back (it's their exciting little secret)
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Old February 20 2014, 06:21 PM   #27
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

hux wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The problem wasn't the character. The character had enormous potential. The writers just couldn't seem to figure that out
Which is why i said, the writers gave us a character that was a stinker
And I still don't agree with that way of putting it. They wrote the character in an appealing way, but just couldn't seem to figure out good stories for her. The problem was with plot, not characterization.


Seems to me that there were two reasons why the writers failed to develop Kes

1 - She was too closely associated with Neelix (something that i never really understood...you've got two, new alien species to introduce into the Trek universe and you make them a couple!) Had they just been friends, then the writers may have been compelled to write for both of them (rather than writing for Neelix and just having Kes stand next to him a lot)
Which is probably why they used "Warlord" as an excuse to break them up -- and why they kept them broken up afterward even though the breakup was Tieran's doing rather than Kes's.

Although she did have significant relationships with characters other than Neelix -- principally the Doctor. She was the one who first treated the Doctor as a person rather than a program, the one who inspired him to become more than he was. And the Doctor quickly became a fan-favorite character. Kes also had a close relationship with Tuvok as her mentor, a surrogate-daughter thing with Janeway, an unrequited crush from Tom Paris, etc.

I did often think it would be interesting to see her interact more with B'Elanna -- that combination was rarely touched on. One of my first pitches to the show was a Kes-B'Elanna focus story. I know Greg Cox had the same idea when he wrote his novel The Black Shore, which pairs those two characters off.


2 - They gave her magic brain powers (this meant they only had an interest in writing for her character when it involved doing some mind bendy type stuff)
That didn't hurt Tuvok, though.
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Old February 20 2014, 07:20 PM   #28
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

Kes was a really "blah" character for me for years. Recently, though I've been watching a few episodes of Voyager and I've been surprised how much I've warmed to Kes.
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Old February 20 2014, 08:24 PM   #29
hux
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

Christopher wrote: View Post
And I still don't agree with that way of putting it. They wrote the character in an appealing way, but just couldn't seem to figure out good stories for her. The problem was with plot, not characterization.
You can't create good stories unless you've got a character that inspires you to write good stories....she wasn't developed into anyone interesting enough to deserve good stories and that was the problem. No amount of plot can compensate for poorly conceived and poorly developed characters

You might might think that it was simply the case that she lacked good stories but i think most people would disagree with that assessment....before i can invest in her stories, i need to give a damn about who she is....and i simply never did

Christopher wrote: View Post
Although she did have significant relationships with characters other than Neelix -- principally the Doctor. She was the one who first treated the Doctor as a person rather than a program, the one who inspired him to become more than he was. And the Doctor quickly became a fan-favorite character. Kes also had a close relationship with Tuvok as her mentor, a surrogate-daughter thing with Janeway, an unrequited crush from Tom Paris, etc.
But most of those interactions were about Kes facilitating the development of other characters....they weren't really about her development....the doctor is a real boy....Janeway is mummy....Tuvok is a wise Vulcan...Tom is a bad boy who will clash with Neelix but then build a friendship with him etc etc

but who is Kes?....i don't really know....she's that nice girl who...erm....yeah...walks the corridors being nice & stuff

Christopher wrote: View Post
That didn't hurt Tuvok, though
No.....it hurt Kes (the position of annoying mind bendy character has been filled)
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Old February 20 2014, 08:36 PM   #30
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Re: Sell me on Kes.

hux wrote: View Post
But most of those interactions were about Kes facilitating the development of other characters....they weren't really about her development....the doctor is a real boy....Janeway is mummy....Tuvok is a wise Vulcan...Tom is a bad boy who will clash with Neelix but then build a friendship with him etc etc

but who is Kes?....i don't really know....she's that nice girl who...erm....yeah...walks the corridors being nice & stuff
Bingo. Kes was largely a device in the service of the other main characters who implicitly mattered more. She was cursed with otherness and never fully integrated into the cast of characters. All along the elephant in the room was the hint that her involvement on the ship was going to be temporary. Same goes with Neelix, and, big surprise*, he never left the Delta Quadrant either.


* - sarcasm.
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