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Old February 18 2014, 12:24 AM   #31
USS Triumphant
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Re: Star Trek Currency

USS Triumphant wrote:
FormerLurker wrote: View Post
My theory on why food tastes funny coming out of the replicators that are operated by Starfleet is that Starfleet Medical is having the system automatically adjust certain things to insure proper nutrition for crews and to try to keep them from getting overweight.
They could also be adjusting nutrition content for other reasons. Say someone loves Cheetos(or its 24th century equivalent). They eat Cheetos every chance they get, and can get Cheetos out of the replicator any time of day or night. Medical knows this, and programs the replicators to include basic nutritional needs like vitamins so that crewmember doesn't develop scurvy, or an equivalent condition.
Well, yes, that was part of what I was getting at. But if you were unclear, then thanks for adding what you did, because others probably were, too.

Adding those nutrients (and probably substituting in some non- or less caloric content) would probably make stuff taste odd, and thus the occasional complaints we've heard. Which makes me think, now that we're on the subject, that the characters that we hear complain are probably real PIGS with the replicator and that's why so much of their food gets adjusted so dramatically.
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Old February 18 2014, 07:31 PM   #32
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Re: Star Trek Currency

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
if you scan something down to the smallest subatomic level, and then recreate that something from that scan with the resolution necessary for a transporter, the result should be an object or being that is exactly the same as the original.
Problem there is thereplicator is incapable of reproducing certain drugs and organic materials, even when the original is right there being scanned. In one episode Dr. Crusher explain that the material was "too complex" (The Enemy).

And iirc, the replicator can not manufacture living organisms. But your describtions it should, still they couldn't make Neeelix a new lung, nor Picard a new heart. In Picard's case they obviously would know the structure of a Human heart and would have Piacrd to scan his unique DNA.

Most likely the food that comes out of a replicator isn't a down to the subatomic reproduction of organic food, it is a reasonable facsimile.

If you USS Triumphant order a raw potato from your replicator, cut it into quarters and place it a few inches under fertile soil, it wouldn't grow into four potato plants, because strickly speaking what you obtained from your replicator wasn't actually a potato.

Looked like one, maybe tasted like one, but it wasn't a potato.

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Old February 18 2014, 09:50 PM   #33
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Re: Star Trek Currency

T'Girl wrote: View Post
And iirc, the replicator can not manufacture living organisms.
If a transporter can completely disassemble and reassemble a living being, then a replicator should be able to use the pattern the transporter scanned and push back out multiple duplicates of that living being. The only reason it can't is plot device failure - that the writers did not want the stories they were telling to involve such easy duplicates - not anything that makes actual sense from a tech perspective.
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Old February 19 2014, 05:15 AM   #34
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Re: Star Trek Currency

You're right, it is ultimately for dramatic reasons, but they address it in the TNG Tech Manual. Transporters are capable of "quantum-level resolution" whereas replicators are only capable of "molecular-level resolution."

Technobabble, perhaps, but I've always admired how much thought they put into that manual.
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Old February 19 2014, 12:02 PM   #35
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Re: Star Trek Currency

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
If a transporter can completely disassemble and reassemble a living being, then a replicator should be able to use the pattern the transporter scanned and push back out multiple duplicates of that living being.
While there are some similarities, the transporter and the replicator are very different devices. In many cases what a transporter can do, the replicator can't, and vice versa.

In The Enemy, Crusher could not replicator ribosomes, so she needed some real ones from Worf for transplant, but Worf has been through the transporter numerous times, yet he still had ribosomes.

The transporter simply moved Worf's ribosomes from place to place, it didn't attempt to manufacture them.

Two different devices.

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Old February 19 2014, 12:16 PM   #36
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Re: Star Trek Currency

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
Transporters are capable of "quantum-level resolution" whereas replicators are only capable of "molecular-level resolution."
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Two different devices.

I'd accept that, but what comes with it is that our heroes and the people that build their ships are pretty much morons. Because there is no indication whatsoever that transporters are "more expensive" or otherwise more resource intensive to build than replicators, nor is there a size reason for transporters to not be placed where the replicators are.

No, what the real deal is is two things, and they are both meta: one being the writer's prerogative thing that I mentioned before, and the other being that they (the writers/showrunners) wanted to imply that there is some special quality to LIFE that makes it unreplicatable. And the idea that there is a special quality to life is nice and even "true" (for certain values of true) from a philosophical perspective, but it makes no sense from a technological perspective - especially when certain episodes have made exceptions and shown us that copying people CAN happen!
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Old February 19 2014, 06:11 PM   #37
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Re: Star Trek Currency

I never liked those copying people episodes. It really takes the tension out of situations when they set a precedent that people can just be manufactured.

Plus, again from a technical perspective, the transporter takes matter from once place, moves it, then reassembles it. So there is only enough matter in "matter stream" (the actual term for it) to make one person. Given that logic, it would have been physically impossible to create that second Riker.
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Old February 19 2014, 10:29 PM   #38
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Re: Star Trek Currency

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
I never liked those copying people episodes. It really takes the tension out of situations when they set a precedent that people can just be manufactured.
Um... people CAN just be manufactured. We do it all the time (pun intended). There's nothing special about any of us from an overhead perspective - we're specks of life on a mudball little planet that is in turn only a flicker of a speck in the scheme of greater spacetime. Life is only special because of what it means to each of us internally (in our minds) and what we mean to each other.

I'm not at all bothered by the duplication episodes - I'm bothered that a good sci-fi show would chicken out of exploring what it means when you CAN do that on purpose, at will, as a society. Because it is coming, in the real world - cloning, and also, complete human modelling in virtual environments - so it would be wise to take a good hard look at it and work through some of the accompanying issues ahead of time.
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Old February 20 2014, 01:06 AM   #39
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Re: Star Trek Currency

The way you put it takes all the drama out of everything.

I mean, when Spock died, I doubt you or anyone else shrugged their shoulders and said, "Eh, plenty more where he came from, and look how grand the universe is anyway!"

I appreciate what you mean about exploring the issues. I don't know if it was chickening out so much as just a choice of different stories to tell. Plus, cloning might have felt much farther off when, say TNG was written, than now.
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Old February 20 2014, 01:35 AM   #40
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Re: Star Trek Currency

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
The way you put it takes all the drama out of everything.

I mean, when Spock died, I doubt you or anyone else shrugged their shoulders and said, "Eh, plenty more where he came from
On the contrary - I take a great deal of heart from the idea that what matters most to us is us because to the universe we are nothing.

And a clone or even a transporter copy isn't the same person. If anyone knows - and someone would have to, even if it was just them - then they would be different. Troi certainly didn't view the two Rikers as interchangable. Spock certainly didn't want to keep the mirror versions of Kirk and the others in "Mirror, Mirror". And I wasn't certain that Spock was still going to be truly Spock after the end of Star Trek III, even after having his original soul reinstalled.
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Old February 20 2014, 05:13 PM   #41
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Re: Star Trek Currency

Troi might have seen the two Rikers as interchangeable had she been there when he was duplicated. The years of divergence in their lives made them different people.

What if, right after Spock's death, Kirk went to the transporter, called up his last transport and worked some magic to rematerialize him from an earlier 'save state'? Or if he took the body to Exo III and had an android duplicate of Spock made? Would things really have been much different to after Spock's rebirth and resurrection at the end of III?
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