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Old February 13 2014, 06:23 PM   #31
Runetouch
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

But who are the Federation to decide whether the Klingon system is corrupt or not? They may be different, but for all Starfleet knew, Kirk and McCoy may have been guilty, and they may have been tried fairly. Anyway, it's not as if the trial was that unfair.
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Old February 13 2014, 06:25 PM   #32
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

^ So the scenes where Kirk and McCoy were allowed to cross-examine their accusers were...edited out of the film?
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Old February 13 2014, 09:23 PM   #33
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

Who says they are allowed to do that in a Klingon court?
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Old February 13 2014, 09:32 PM   #34
Shik
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

Chinese-- er, Klingon law: guilty until proven guilty.
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Old February 13 2014, 11:56 PM   #35
Sci
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

Runetouch wrote: View Post
But who are the Federation to decide whether the Klingon system is corrupt or not?
Who is the Federation to decide what it thinks of the Klingon system? It's a sovereign state that practices constitutional liberal democracy based upon the principles of universal rights, equality, justice, and liberty, that's who.

I'm sorry, but the idea that respecting another culture in general and respecting another culture's sovereignty extends to not being allowed to negatively evaluate an aspect of that culture is just absurd. By your logic, Bolivians would never be allowed to criticize the capitalist system in America, Norwegians would never be allowed to criticize the role of sexism in Saudi Arabia, and New Zealanders would never be allowed to criticize the lack of meaningful democracy in Russia.

Respecting another culture does not mean respecting everything about that culture.

They may be different, but for all Starfleet knew, Kirk and McCoy may have been guilty, and they may have been tried fairly. Anyway, it's not as if the trial was that unfair.
Nonsense. The Klingons broadcast the trial for all to see, and it was obvious that it was deeply unfair. Their legal counsel was silenced on numerous occasions when he tried to raise reasonable objections, and circumstantial evidence was accepted by the court as the ironclad proof of guilt. It was patently rigged from the start.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ So the scenes where Kirk and McCoy were allowed to cross-examine their accusers were...edited out of the film?
Who says they are allowed to do that in a Klingon court?
If they're not allowed to do that in a Klingon court, then that's a perfect example of why the Federation can reasonably say that the Klingon court system is corrupt and unfair.

Again, the Federation has every right to object to the Klingon system. What it does not have the right to do is to impose its system on the Klingons, or to refuse to honor its treaty obligations to the Klingons (e.g., to refuse to allow Kirk and McCoy to be arrested by the Klingons under the auspices of interstellar law, or to invade Klingon space to remove Kirk and McCoy back to the Federation by force).
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Old February 14 2014, 02:22 PM   #36
USS KG5
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
It's my position that the people of the Federation (and that includes Starfleet personnel) are not simply political pawns, and even though it would have cost more than their two live to do so, Starfleet should have been sent in to attempt a rescue. And in all honesty the Klingons should have been assured that the Federation was morally and ethically unwilling to surrender two of it's own people, even for a important political gain.
The problem is that you would have to assume that Azetbur was willing to back down, we the viewer know that she couldn't, as she was trying to prevent a war herself.

The plot required the president to appear a bit weak, but its hard to argue that a Federation president should start a war over two men, it could cost millions of lives, factor in Klingon desperation and you have a very nasty fight.

Look at the Cuban missile crisis. Although it appeared to the western press that Kennedy didn't blick, the reality is a deal was struck. If there had been no concessions from either side, it is likely our world as we know it would have ended in 1962!

Being a hard-ass is all well and good, but in diplomacy often the best solution still leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
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Old February 17 2014, 05:48 AM   #37
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

Whenever I watch those scenes in TUC with the Federation President now, all I can think of is Red Forman: "This President is not above the law...dumbass!"
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Old February 19 2014, 12:25 AM   #38
Shik
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

Or better yet, Clarence Boddicker.

"I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I'm just not making myself clear. I don't want to fuck with you, Azetbur. But I got the connections. I got the starship organization. I got the muscle to shove enough of this Federation so far up your stupid turtlehead ass that you'll shit photon exhaust for a year."
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Old February 19 2014, 02:59 PM   #39
JarodRussell
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

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