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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old February 6 2014, 10:46 PM   #16
JarodRussell
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Re: Death & the holodeck

Makarov wrote: View Post
If the holodeck can create a representation of anyone, such as the episode where Geordie can create Leah Brahms with I believe only a 13% error, how would this change the way people experience loss?

There was that episode The Bonding where an alien pretends to be the kid's recently dead mom. The crew helps him let go of that alien. But the show doesn't deal with the fact he could have popped into the holodeck the next day and had another fake mom.

Welsey could have spent time with a holodeck version of his dad. Anyone who gets dumped in a relationship could create a virtual version of that other person and continue on in the relationship. You could even pay a doctor to remove the memory of losing them in the first place.

How do you think they stop people from doing that in the trek universe?
Roddenberry had the idea that in 300 years, people in general grieve differently than today because of humanity's different self-conception of their existence. I always liked that idea.
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Old February 7 2014, 10:52 PM   #17
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Death & the holodeck

Also I imagine people who tried to recreate the woman who dumped them in the holodeck would find it depressing and unfulfilling. You can't have a real human relationship with a person you can control every aspect of.

You wouldn't want the recreation to really be like your ex-girlfriend, you'd want it to be like the idealized perception of her in your memory.
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Old February 8 2014, 04:16 PM   #18
vulcan redshirt
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Re: Death & the holodeck

I guess that would be illegal anyway.

Now, how about, if you were on a posting away from your other half, and you both had access to holodecks, could the holodecks be tied together through the comm systems so you could still 'interact'?
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Old February 8 2014, 05:01 PM   #19
E-DUB
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Re: Death & the holodeck

They did just that in the most recent Voyager novel for a memorial service. Holodecks at both ends, tied together by subspace.
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Old February 10 2014, 04:40 AM   #20
Makarov
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Re: Death & the holodeck

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
You wouldn't want the recreation to really be like your ex-girlfriend, you'd want it to be like the idealized perception of her in your memory.
That's the thing though, it doesn't have to be created by you.

The computer can do it based on actual information about her. So you would end up with almost the exact same person, interacting in the same way as if the person was real.

And if we accept data as a person, then this holodeck experience would be no less real than the flesh and blood person.
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Old February 10 2014, 07:52 AM   #21
JD5000
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Re: Death & the holodeck

In "The Bonding", Troi and Picard get into a pretty detailed explanation of how human beings (specifically, since Jeremy IS human) experience death as a natural part of life. Nothing they say suggests anything has changed in the grieving process since our time. I'm sure plenty of people in the Trek universe have tried 'bringing back' loved ones, and ultimately found it to be unnatural and unhealthy. I know I would.

Any episode that involves the recreation of a person that has passed is tragic.
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Old February 13 2014, 05:04 AM   #22
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Death & the holodeck

Makarov wrote: View Post

And if we accept data as a person, then this holodeck experience would be no less real than the flesh and blood person.
Unless we're talking about a hologram with The Doctor or Moriarty level complexity, the hologram would still be just a simulation. No matter how realistic the simulation is it would still be a Realdoll, and wouldn't feel like anything other than masturbation.

You can't really love a woman you have complete control over. At best she'd be a very effective loneliness bandaid. If a woman can't say no to you, you feel nothing when she says yes.
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Old February 13 2014, 11:54 AM   #23
JarodRussell
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Re: Death & the holodeck

In Generations, there is this thing about Picard's grieve... it's not the usual selfish “I miss them“ grieve, he is instead sad FOR them, because they can't enjoy all the good stuff anymore. I liked that.
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Old February 17 2014, 01:51 AM   #24
SG-17
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Re: Death & the holodeck

As we've seen with The Doctor and Moriarty holoprograms can become sentient. If someone were to recreate a deceased person accurately enough that the program becomes sentient, would that program be considered the same person as its model?

Though to be honest the whole holoprogam sentience thing got blurry after TNG. The Doctor was sentient yes, but were Zimmerman's other holograms? Were the other EMHs also sentient? It gets confusing because of the way that holoprograms begin to act. In DS9 the holoprograms seem to be self-aware in the fact that they are holograms. Where is the line drawn?
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Old February 17 2014, 02:09 AM   #25
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Death & the holodeck

SG-17 wrote: View Post
As we've seen with The Doctor and Moriarty holoprograms can become sentient. If someone were to recreate a deceased person accurately enough that the program becomes sentient, would that program be considered the same person as its model?

Though to be honest the whole holoprogam sentience thing got blurry after TNG. The Doctor was sentient yes, but were Zimmerman's other holograms? Were the other EMHs also sentient? It gets confusing because of the way that holoprograms begin to act. In DS9 the holoprograms seem to be self-aware in the fact that they are holograms. Where is the line drawn?
Nobody on DS9 considered Vic Fontaine as sentient even though he was believable enough that they emotionally connected to him as if he were.

The program would not be the same person as its model. It would be a new individual, who behaves very similarity to the original.
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Old February 18 2014, 05:10 PM   #26
Makarov
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Re: Death & the holodeck

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
You can't really love a woman you have complete control over. At best she'd be a very effective loneliness bandaid. If a woman can't say no to you, you feel nothing when she says yes.
True but when you make the computer create the person, this representation will say no to you just like the real one. You can turn control to the computer, make it "read only" so you can't edit whenever you feel like, sprinkle in a dash of sentience and you've essentially cloned the person.
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Old February 18 2014, 05:23 PM   #27
HIjol
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Re: Death & the holodeck

Let's face it...presented with the "able to", many of us would "bring our loved one back" in a heartbeat...others of us would consider it profane and disgusting...I think the Holo-Powers-That-Be left it ambiguous on purpose, to show just that...some would, to some degree or other, and some would not...
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Old February 20 2014, 06:14 PM   #28
Shat Happens
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Re: Death & the holodeck

That would depend on the computar being able to extrapolate the actions of the person. If I want to see some person and have to describe to the computer exactly what I want to see/hear, it wouldnt be so much fun.

I meand, if I would visit holo-Grandma, I'd ask "how was your day" for example
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Old February 28 2014, 06:34 AM   #29
Tulin
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Re: Death & the holodeck

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
I might be wrong, but I just don't think you're allowed to create copies of real people who are alive or who have died recently (say, last 50 years or so) on the holodeck
Where the hell did you get this from?!?

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