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Old February 16 2014, 11:14 PM   #1021
urbandefault
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
So, I cant read 1000 posts on this so I'll just chip in with my opinion.

Janeway was right.

Tuvix is a freak accident. No history, no family. Is it unfortunate, even tragic? Yes.

But what would have been more tragic is abandoning two men with lives, with careers and [in Tuvok's case] with families to die. Janeway could not afford to let sentiment get in the way of restoring two real crewmen who were forced together to create a hybrid.

Sure its uncomfortable. Its meant to be. However, in my opinion, Janeway made the only real choice there was: fix the mistake and save two lives.
teacake wrote: View Post
She was fixing a transporter accident.
My feelings exactly.
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Old February 16 2014, 11:15 PM   #1022
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
So, I cant read 1000 posts on this so I'll just chip in with my opinion.
Why can't you read a thousand posts?
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Old February 16 2014, 11:54 PM   #1023
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Why can't you read a thousand posts?
Given that all one thousand consist of just two basic posts, slightly rephrased each time, and repeated over and over, why read them all?


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Old February 16 2014, 11:56 PM   #1024
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

A true completist wouldn't ask such a thing T'Girl!
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Old February 17 2014, 12:44 AM   #1025
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

urbandefault wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
So, I cant read 1000 posts on this so I'll just chip in with my opinion.

Janeway was right.

Tuvix is a freak accident. No history, no family. Is it unfortunate, even tragic? Yes.

But what would have been more tragic is abandoning two men with lives, with careers and [in Tuvok's case] with families to die. Janeway could not afford to let sentiment get in the way of restoring two real crewmen who were forced together to create a hybrid.

Sure its uncomfortable. Its meant to be. However, in my opinion, Janeway made the only real choice there was: fix the mistake and save two lives.
teacake wrote: View Post
She was fixing a transporter accident.
My feelings exactly.
So you are ok with murder then?

Tuvix was a sentient being, and in a sense born on a Federation Starship which would make him a Federation citizen and as such entitled to all the protections that come with it, and even if he wasn't a Federation citzen when onboard a Federation ship, Federalion law applies. Murder is against Federation law. Therefore Janeway was wrong and is guilty of murder.
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Old February 17 2014, 12:58 AM   #1026
urbandefault
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
So, I cant read 1000 posts on this so I'll just chip in with my opinion.

Janeway was right.

Tuvix is a freak accident. No history, no family. Is it unfortunate, even tragic? Yes.

But what would have been more tragic is abandoning two men with lives, with careers and [in Tuvok's case] with families to die. Janeway could not afford to let sentiment get in the way of restoring two real crewmen who were forced together to create a hybrid.

Sure its uncomfortable. Its meant to be. However, in my opinion, Janeway made the only real choice there was: fix the mistake and save two lives.
teacake wrote: View Post
She was fixing a transporter accident.
My feelings exactly.
So you are ok with murder then?

Tuvix was a sentient being, and in a sense born on a Federation Starship which would make him a Federation citizen and as such entitled to all the protections that come with it, and even if he wasn't a Federation citzen when onboard a Federation ship, Federalion law applies. Murder is against Federation law. Therefore Janeway was wrong and is guilty of murder.
No one died. Two people who were combined through no fault of their own were restored by Janeway's order. But if that's how you define murder ... sure. I'll take Murder for $200, Alex.
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Old February 17 2014, 01:21 AM   #1027
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Naomi was a transporter accident.

Did they reintegrate the quantum duplicate walking around with the baby corpse in the EMH's freezer at some point?

B'Elanna was a transporter accident after Faces.

Drone was a transporter malfunction and Mulcaehey would have insisted that part of his essence was stolen and that he medically needed it inserted back inside him.

From Homestead

NAOMI: And once, there was a transporter accident. Neelix and Commander Tuvok got combined to make a completely different person.
BRAX: Really?
NAOMI: You don't think I could make up a story like that, do you?
BRAX: Hello, Neelix. Do you want to play kadis-kot?
NEELIX: Maybe later. (Dexa and Neelix move away)
From in the Flesh

CHAKOTAY: Turns out the transporter malfunctioned. My uniform ended up in the pattern buffer.
ARCHER: You're kidding. You were naked?
CHAKOTAY: Not entirely. I had my commbadge.
ARCHER: I hope it was well-placed. Computer, lights.
the Indian only suspects that his uniform was in the buffer... But what if he had metabolized it?
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Old February 17 2014, 02:40 AM   #1028
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

urbandefault wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post



My feelings exactly.
So you are ok with murder then?

Tuvix was a sentient being, and in a sense born on a Federation Starship which would make him a Federation citizen and as such entitled to all the protections that come with it, and even if he wasn't a Federation citzen when onboard a Federation ship, Federalion law applies. Murder is against Federation law. Therefore Janeway was wrong and is guilty of murder.
No one died. Two people who were combined through no fault of their own were restored by Janeway's order. But if that's how you define murder ... sure. I'll take Murder for $200, Alex.
In an accident people can die, be injured etc.. but when someone dies in an accident we don't call it murder. Tuvix was a sentient being and as such was entitled to the full protection of Federation Law. Also Janeway was hadly an impartial judge in the matter. If Tuvix refuses to undergo a procedure he is fully entitled to do so.

If we look back to TNG's "Measure of a Man". The court ruled that Data could refuse to undergo Maddox's procedure, We have a similar situation, Tuvix is refusing to undergo a procure, as precedent has been set the court should have ruled in Tuvix's favour and Data was in Starfleet. Remember Tuvix had no control over his creation, murdering someone because of how he came into being is wrong.
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Old February 17 2014, 02:47 AM   #1029
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Data could not refuse an order without resigning his commission, it was only then after he tried leaving Starfleet that he was told that he was Federation property, and that commission or not he was still owned by Starfleet.

Was Tuvix a commissioned Officer, and if so did he try to resign his commission?
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Old February 17 2014, 03:01 AM   #1030
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Well if he wasn't an officer, that would make him a civillian. Isn't it the job of Starfleet to protect civilians not murder them?
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Old February 17 2014, 03:08 AM   #1031
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Janeway agreed to murder the crew of the Equinox to appease some angry space dolphins.

Not the best moral compass.

Tuvok had to go through this again in Riddles.

But Janeway having not learned her lesson the first time did not send a full security detail to drag Tuvok back to Sick bay for another neutering.
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Old February 17 2014, 01:43 PM   #1032
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Janeway did not murder Tuvix....because nothing of him was actually destroyed....his mind and body continued but in an altered state

At best, you might argue that she allowed a unique consciousness to be lost by the natural step of bringing Tuvok and Neelix back

If you're 6 year old daughter screams that she wants to be six forever (and keep that 6 year old consciousness alive for all time) the fact that time allows it to be lost as she develops into an adult with a new unique adult consciousness, does not mean that time is a murderer....and if it does, then your definition of murder is massively abstract

It's a huge grey area....and it would be a simplistic mind that dismisses her actions as murder

As for the doctor refusing to do it...that isn't a huge issue for me....if Janeway walked into sickbay and told the doctor to stab Kes to death....would he simply say "sorry captain, i can't do that but here, have the knife"....i doubt it....he'd make an impassioned plea, he'd try to protect Kes.....with Tuvix, he doesn't make any such impassioned speech to save him....he simply says "i can't do it" then just stands aside
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Old February 17 2014, 05:01 PM   #1033
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Was Tuvix a sentient being?

I think most of us would agree he was, and as such being on a Federation ship was under the protection of Federation Law.

What offense did he commit?

I think most of us would agree he didn't commit any offense.

Was General Order 4 violated?

As far as we know violting that order is the only offense which carries the death penalty.


Tuvix can not be held responsible for how he came into being, it wasn't his fault that his creation resulted from the merger of Neelix and Tuvok. We generally don't punish people for things over which they had no control.

So what crime did Tuvix commit to warrant the cestation of his existance? Wanting to live is not a crime.
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Old February 17 2014, 05:39 PM   #1034
hux
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
So what crime did Tuvix commit to warrant the cestation of his existance?.
But his existence was not ended...that's the point....why do people keep missing that part....he continues to exist in Tuvok and Neelix

The only thing that was ended was a personality (one which was entirely dependent upon the existence of Tuvok and Neelix)....and ending that cannot be defined as murder otherwise, Janeway forcing Borg Seven to abandon her Borg personality in favour of her human personality would also be classed as murder....Samantha Wildman allowing Naomi to grow up and develop an adult personality that is different to her current personality would be classed as murder

Murder has not taken place....just a very weird transporter accident that brought up some very interesting questions about the nature of sentience, existence, consciousness and individuality

One of the best Trek episodes ever
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Old February 17 2014, 07:20 PM   #1035
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

By your reasoning Tuvok's and Neelix's existance wasn't ended as they existed in Tuvix.

We agree that Tuvix was a sentient being do we not? So what do we call the deliberate ending of a sentient's being existance?

The matter before the court was/should have been does Tuvix as a sentient being have the right to choose his own path?

The episode has certainly caused debate
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