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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old February 13 2014, 04:06 PM   #31
CommishSleer
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
I could have sworn it was just food. You know, food. My bad.
Same here. I can almost swear they were feeding Vaal food and flowers etc.

While it makes sense, it still seems a bit dangerous. When they were feeding Vaal they didn't seem to be that careful. They seemed to be dancing about a bit. Although maybe my memory is unreliable here as I thought they were feeding Vaal food.
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Old February 13 2014, 05:20 PM   #32
Redfern
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Certainly the discussion has not degenerated into a name calling squabble, but just to prove I'm not simply talking out of my a$$ (that would be an interesting ventriloquist act!), here are a couple of screen captures from Trek Core that reveal Vaal is being "fed" the chemically unstable mineral shards.

In this first example, one can see the hands of a woman on the far right (plus the tip of her left boob) holding a sizeable rock.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...pplehd0853.jpg

In the second, wider shot, we can see on the far right a young female bending to grasp a rock from a neatly stacked pile. Towards the left of the shot, we can see a male at the front of the line with a fair sized rock, a woman behind him with a much smaller rock, and a male behind her carrying, well, the hint of green could make one reasonably assume it might be something organic with chlorophyl.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...pplehd0860.jpg

As an unrelated bonus, here are two captures of the yeoman going all "Emma Peel" on a native. Too bad there isn't a shot of the actual flip, but you gotta' love the "after" stance! Meow!

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...pplehd1240.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...pplehd1241.jpg

Enjoy!

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old February 13 2014, 05:34 PM   #33
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Redfern wrote: View Post
Certainly the discussion has not degenerated into a name calling squabble, but just to prove I'm not simply talking out of my a$$ (that would be an interesting ventriloquist act!), here are a couple of screen captures from Trek Core that reveal Vaal is being "fed" the chemically unstable mineral shards.

In this first example, one can see the hands of a woman on the far right (plus the tip of her left boob) holding a sizeable rock.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...pplehd0853.jpg

In the second, wider shot, we can see on the far right a young female bending to grasp a rock from a neatly stacked pile. Towards the left of the shot, we can see a male at the front of the line with a fair sized rock, a woman behind him with a much smaller rock, and a male behind her carrying, well, the hint of green could make one reasonably assume it might be something organic with chlorophyl.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...pplehd0860.jpg

As an unrelated bonus, here are two captures of the yeoman going all "Emma Peel" on a native. Too bad there isn't a shot of the actual flip, but you gotta' love the "after" stance! Meow!

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...pplehd1240.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...pplehd1241.jpg

Enjoy!

Sincerely,

Bill
Sorry if I implied that I didn't believe you.

I was too lazy to check TREKCORE myself. I know how to do it. Or I could put my blu ray on.

I actually do believe you. You have no reason to lie. Its a compliment that I haven't checked. Also I'm lazy.

I still haven't checked.

OK maybe I'll check tomorrow. But it doesn't mean I don't believe you. Just that I want to see it myself. Wait you've put the links in. I'm definitely checking now.
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Old February 13 2014, 05:43 PM   #34
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

I went another way in the new book. I decided that the exploding rocks were an accidental byproduct of the terraforming process that maintained idyllic, garden-like conditions across the entire planet, and that the poison plants were not toxic to the Vaalians, but only to intruders.

And, yeah, I assumed the Vaalians were "feeding" Vaal with fruits, vegetables, and other organic matter . . . .which I rationalized as being a sustainable energy source that could be safely provided by even a primitive people without any technological skills.
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Last edited by Greg Cox; February 13 2014 at 06:14 PM.
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Old February 13 2014, 06:06 PM   #35
Search4
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Redfern wrote: View Post
Strudel, don't feel bad. For decades, most of us assumed the Vaalans were "feeding" their "god" fruits and veggies. But with the release of the Blu-Ray discs, the cleaned up footage allowed someone to notice, "Hey, that isn't fruit! They are those ^&*$ exploding rocks!" That observation was posted which prompted other fans to examine the footage. Sure enough, the objects within the baskets were indeed rocks.

Sincerely,

Bill

48 years later, you still learn something! kj
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Old February 13 2014, 06:13 PM   #36
Redfern
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Sorry if I implied that I didn't believe you.
Oh, please don't worry. I realized you did not have issue with my assessment. I'm just the kind of guy who tries to support my statements. Because, who knows, I could have been mistaken. (Besides, I just enjoy using the phrase "talking outa' my a$$". It conjures such a bizarre mental image.)

Plus, it gave me an excuse to see some pretty young lasses with bare midriffs , a rarity in classic Trek.

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old February 13 2014, 06:15 PM   #37
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I went another way in the new book. I decided that the exploding rocks were an accidental byproduct of the terraforming process that maintained idyllic, garden-like conditions across the entire planet, and that poison plants were not poisonous to the Vaalians, but only to intruders.

And, yeah, I assumed the Vaalians were "feeding" Vaal with fruits, vegetables, and other organic matter . . . .which I rationalized as being a sustainable energy source that could be safely provided by even a primitive people without any technological skills.
Hmm... on the one hand, those screencaps do show them feeding Vaal rocks, so we seem to have been wrong all these years to think it was food -- but on the other hand, the idea that they're feeding it rocks doesn't make a lot of sense. Are these rocks just lying around all over the place? Wouldn't they be depleted eventually if people are constantly gathering them and feeding them into Vaal's mouth? You make a good point that the fuel source would need to be sustainable indefinitely, and a mineral fuel would not be sustainable for long unless the natives engaged in mining, which clearly they don't.

So maybe this is a case where we have to ignore the "right" answer as implausible and stick to our old "wrong" assumption because it actually makes more sense.
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Old February 13 2014, 06:26 PM   #38
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Christopher, in response to your earlier post: I fully concede that, if Vaal was constructed by an external force to enslave the population of this world, the PD would be null and void. But that strikes me as being a bigger leap into assumptions than the idea that it was a solution (to what problem I do not know nor do I really need to--nor does Kirk) arrived at by the ancestors of the inhabitants. This is a simple YMMV point and I don't think it needs extensive debate. However, the rest of your argument--that development should not have an end-point and that an alien race, in its superior wisdom (those aliens, in this case, being human) should be able to come in and change things--is precisely the kind of thinking the PD seems designed to prevent (well, not the thinking so much as the acting on that thought). It still boils down to saying essentially "As a Starfleet officer, your prime directive is to refrain from interfering with the internal affairs of other cultures--unless you really, really, really don't like what they are doing."
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Old February 13 2014, 06:31 PM   #39
Greg Cox
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Christopher wrote: View Post

So maybe this is a case where we have to ignore the "right" answer as implausible and stick to our old "wrong" assumption because it actually makes more sense.
And, honestly, that's a "wrong" assumption that most of us have been making for nearly fifty years or so. I rewatched "The Apple" before writing those chapters, but it never occurred to me to scrutinize any screencaps in detail. Just watching the ep on TV, as originally intended, it sure seems as though the Vaalians are simply bringing baskets of fruit.

Certainly there are no close-ups or dialogue establishing that the explosive rocks are being used as fuel.
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Old February 13 2014, 06:50 PM   #40
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Bill-sweet research! I llve the "Emma Peel" shots. Two of the buffed natives put down in 5 seconds. I do like the look in the second shot. She seems to be saying, "Yea, they're out. I don't need to karate chop them any more"
No way one of these guys could go toe to toe with her:

http://www.trekspace.org/photo/secur...5?context=user

http://www.trekspace.org/photo/charl...y?context=user
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Old February 13 2014, 07:08 PM   #41
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Christopher, in response to your earlier post: I fully concede that, if Vaal was constructed by an external force to enslave the population of this world, the PD would be null and void. But that strikes me as being a bigger leap into assumptions than the idea that it was a solution (to what problem I do not know nor do I really need to--nor does Kirk) arrived at by the ancestors of the inhabitants.
I don't agree, since there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that the inhabitants' ancestors had any such capability. Conversely, the Trek galaxy is littered with advanced aliens who go around playing god on various primitive planets, including Earth. I think I've always assumed that Vaal was imposed by aliens -- although maybe that's because the climax is so similar to that of "Who Mourns for Adonais?" right down to the same music.

And I still say that even if it was the people's own ancient ancestors, that doesn't make much difference. That's still essentially an alien culture relative to the villagers -- an extremely remote civilization, one with entirely different technology and values, one that made a choice that the villagers themselves had no say in and no ability to understand. I think it's a double standard to say that a society has a greater right to impose oppression on its distant descendants thousands of years in the future than it does to impose it on aliens from another world. Either way, the people in question are being deprived of any right to choose their fate.


However, the rest of your argument--that development should not have an end-point and that an alien race, in its superior wisdom (those aliens, in this case, being human) should be able to come in and change things--is precisely the kind of thinking the PD seems designed to prevent (well, not the thinking so much as the acting on that thought).
Please don't twist my words. I deeply resent that characterization of my point, because it's a profound misreading. I'm absolutely not saying that we should assume our wisdom is superior. I'm saying that it's never right to follow any law mindlessly, to use it as an excuse to avoid thinking or making a choice. No, we are not superior by default to another race, but that doesn't mean there can't ever be a situation where offering help could be useful. The Prime Directive is meant to keep Starfleet officers responsible and careful in their decisions, to ensure that they remember the priority of the local culture's understanding of their own civilization, values, and needs. It's not meant as a way to avoid responsibility altogether by just rigidly following a literalistic interpretation of the rules. Every situation is unique and needs to be assessed on its own merits -- with the Prime Directive as a vital consideration, of course, but with the understanding that there may occasionally be times when it, like any wisely applied rule, must be bent or interpreted.


It still boils down to saying essentially "As a Starfleet officer, your prime directive is to refrain from interfering with the internal affairs of other cultures--unless you really, really, really don't like what they are doing."
No. I reject the glib assumption that it's impossible for an intelligent, careful, responsible individual to make a choice that is based on an appreciation of other people's needs above one's own prejudices. It is certainly possible to look beyond blind egotism, to apply one's imagination to put oneself in someone else's shoes and understand the validity of a decision that goes against one's personal beliefs. The Prime Directive is a way to ensure that Starfleet personnel do just that -- look beyond their own perspective to consider that of others. But it is not impossible that that approach to decision-making would occasionally lead to the recognition that a people need help making their own choices. Of course there's a risk involved in such a choice, but refusing to make the choice at all can be damaging as well.

Captain Kirk's speech from DTI: Forgotten History:
ďAnd thatís why Starfleet sends men and women out there instead of machines. Because doing the right thing isnít about blind, robotic obedience to a programmed set of rules. Itís about making choices. Choices informed by laws and regulations but tempered by wisdom and compassion, adapted to the unique right and wrong of every situation.
ďAre those choices always right, always free from bias or impulse? No. Weíre fallible beings. We make mistakes. Thatís why we need a Prime Directive in the first placeóto warn us against getting too sure of our own rightness, to stop us before we make well-intentioned mistakes that can devastate a culture we donít fully understand. The Prime Directive isnít about protecting other cultures from their weaknesses, but from ours. But they can make mistakes too. They arenít always right about whatís best for them any more than we are. So we need the latitude to make choices of our own. Itís a latitude that needs to be used sparingly and with careful thought. Believe me, Iíve seen what can happen when itís abused.
ďBut our laws were made by beings just as imperfect as we are, and they have their limits. We canít trust in them blindly, any more than we can trust blindly in ourselves. We need our laws and our individual judgments to balance each other, so that, hopefully, they can cancel out the worst of each otherís imperfections.Ē
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Old February 13 2014, 07:34 PM   #42
GregHenley
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

All these years I had always thought it fruit they gave Vaal. Which I thought was dumb because he generated HUGE amounts of energy from it apparently! But now, the exploding rocks make more sense. There is probably a cut scene somewhere that explains it all.

Greg
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Old February 13 2014, 07:47 PM   #43
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

[B]Christopher/B], I apologize if I misconstrued your point.
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Old February 14 2014, 09:54 AM   #44
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Christopher wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I went another way in the new book. I decided that the exploding rocks were an accidental byproduct of the terraforming process that maintained idyllic, garden-like conditions across the entire planet, and that poison plants were not poisonous to the Vaalians, but only to intruders.

And, yeah, I assumed the Vaalians were "feeding" Vaal with fruits, vegetables, and other organic matter . . . .which I rationalized as being a sustainable energy source that could be safely provided by even a primitive people without any technological skills.
Hmm... on the one hand, those screencaps do show them feeding Vaal rocks, so we seem to have been wrong all these years to think it was food -- but on the other hand, the idea that they're feeding it rocks doesn't make a lot of sense. Are these rocks just lying around all over the place? Wouldn't they be depleted eventually if people are constantly gathering them and feeding them into Vaal's mouth? You make a good point that the fuel source would need to be sustainable indefinitely, and a mineral fuel would not be sustainable for long unless the natives engaged in mining, which clearly they don't.

So maybe this is a case where we have to ignore the "right" answer as implausible and stick to our old "wrong" assumption because it actually makes more sense.
Funny, I always realized they were feeding Vaal the explosive rocks (even when watching as a kid - this is one of the earliest episodes I remember watching, so I have a lot of nostalgia love for it); when I got older, my issue became the depletion aspect you mentioned.

I suppose we could partially handwave it away as Vaal's zapping of Enterprise was causing considerable energy drain, and that normally the natives only rarely fed him. Perhaps the rocks were only a supplemental source of fuel, based on the cave-like appearance, I'd say some sort of geothermal power was the primary source of Vaal's energy.
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Old February 15 2014, 05:39 AM   #45
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

GregHenley wrote: View Post
All these years I had always thought it fruit they gave Vaal. Which I thought was dumb because he generated HUGE amounts of energy from it apparently! But now, the exploding rocks make more sense. There is probably a cut scene somewhere that explains it all.

Greg
I have to say, ``Now the exploding rocks make more sense'' was not a sentence I expected to read when I woke up today.

However, yes, Vaal being fed exploding rocks does make a good bit of sense, so far as that goes.
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