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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old February 13 2014, 04:50 AM   #16
GregHenley
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

She got to go "Emma Peel" and I don't recall there being ANY female security officers in TOS. In the new fan series "Star Trek Continues" there is a female security team member who gets in on some action. Cool.
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Old February 13 2014, 04:51 AM   #17
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Clearly Kirk doesn't think that the PD applies to societies ruled by super-computers. See also: Return of the Archons, Spock's Brain, For the World is Hollow, etc.

Maybe there's an anti-AI footnote buried in the PD somewhere, known as Kirk Amendment?
Yes, the "Prime Directive only applies to growing, developing cultures" argument, invoked explicitly here and in Archons. In "For the World Is Hollow..." the threat posed by Yonada's collision course with a populated Federation world is all the justification Kirk needs, iirc.
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Old February 13 2014, 05:18 AM   #18
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
On another note, did anyone else catch that this is the only time we see a landing beam down in shifts, solely for the plot-driven reason that there needed to be a very high red shirt body count?
I'm sure many have caught that over the years; I certainly did, and it's always annoyed me. They really went overboard with the gratuitous deaths here, although "Obsession" has a higher body count (though the victims were originally going to come back to life at the end -- perhaps explaining why Mr. Leslie is still around later despite dying in the episode).


GregHenley wrote: View Post
I don't recall there being ANY female security officers in TOS.
There were several in the animated series, though -- Anne Nored in "The Survivor" and various extras in "The Lorelei Signal."
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Old February 13 2014, 05:23 AM   #19
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Clearly Kirk doesn't think that the PD applies to societies ruled by super-computers. See also: Return of the Archons, Spock's Brain, For the World is Hollow, etc.

Maybe there's an anti-AI footnote buried in the PD somewhere, known as Kirk Amendment?
Yes, the "Prime Directive only applies to growing, developing cultures" argument, invoked explicitly here and in Archons. In "For the World Is Hollow..." the threat posed by Yonada's collision course with a populated Federation world is all the justification Kirk needs, iirc.
I never thought that a captain was required to let his ship and crew be sacrificed for the sake of the Prime Directive. In fact I assumed that protecting one's ship would be justifiable reasons for VIOLATING it.

And the PD clearly doesn't apply here, for Strudel's point is accurate. Vaal's rule over those people is obviously unnatural and artificial, and the PD is not meant to protect things like that. The PD is meant to protect the natural development of civilizations, and Vaal's very existence prevents such development.
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Old February 13 2014, 05:59 AM   #20
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

I don't think toasting Vaal is going to get rid of the land mine rocks, since I presume those are the same rocks that power Vaal.
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Old February 13 2014, 06:02 AM   #21
Brutal Strudel
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

In response to Mr. Laser Beam: That raises an interesting question, though: if Vaal and Landru were created by the progenitors of the societies over which they preside, why wouldn't they be protected under the Prime Directive? Starfleet is forbidden to interfere with the development of alien cultures, full stop. I doubt it specifies what stage of development (other than that of spacefaring and warp capable, at which point they will by necessity be made aware of the very crowded galaxy they inhabit and deal with the influences of other spacefaring, warp capable civilizations) or allows the captain to disregard the directive if he finds the course the civilization has followed repugnant to his classically liberal sensibilities. If those civilizations, in the course of their "natural" development, decided upon stasis as their so-called endpoint it is still the result of their natural development.

And, regardless of our personal take on the matter, it was canonically established that self-preservation was not sufficient cause to violate it.

In response to Maurice: the episode seemed to suggest that Vaal was powered by the literal food the Stupid Loompas gathered for it. By not letting them feed Vaal, the landing party weakened it enough for the ships phasers to zap it. And yes, I know how stupid that sounds but I also had the misfortune of seeing The Reincarnaton of Peter Proud and thus won't put anything past Max Ehrlich, who wrote both that and "The Apple."
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Old February 13 2014, 06:03 AM   #22
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

GregHenley wrote: View Post
She got to go "Emma Peel" and I don't recall there being ANY female security officers in TOS. In the new fan series "Star Trek Continues" there is a female security team member who gets in on some action. Cool.
Wasn't Zahra security? Or am I confusing her with her IDW NuTrek counterpart?
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Old February 13 2014, 09:00 AM   #23
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

I don't think she was security. It would have been interesting if she was though. If security had a hand to hand tournament like they did in TNG, she probably would have KO', pinned, or submitted all the other security guards. Especially with guys like the ones in Dagger of the Mind, Doomsday Machine, Turnabout Intruder, Charlie X, and The Children Shall Lead. She wouldhave beaten all those guys!

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Old February 13 2014, 09:26 AM   #24
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
In response to Maurice: the episode seemed to suggest that Vaal was powered by the literal food the Stupid Loompas gathered for it. By not letting them feed Vaal, the landing party weakened it enough for the ships phasers to zap it. And yes, I know how stupid that sounds but I also had the misfortune of seeing The Reincarnaton of Peter Proud and thus won't put anything past Max Ehrlich, who wrote both that and "The Apple."
How is that a response? The "food" they fed Vaal appears to have been the explosive rocks, which was my point.
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Old February 13 2014, 10:01 AM   #25
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

I could have sworn it was just food. You know, food. My bad.
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Old February 13 2014, 12:10 PM   #26
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Strudel, don't feel bad. For decades, most of us assumed the Vaalans were "feeding" their "god" fruits and veggies. But with the release of the Blu-Ray discs, the cleaned up footage allowed someone to notice, "Hey, that isn't fruit! They are those ^&*$ exploding rocks!" That observation was posted which prompted other fans to examine the footage. Sure enough, the objects within the baskets were indeed rocks.

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Old February 13 2014, 12:13 PM   #27
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Thank you! I was feeling as stupid as the episode for a second there--now the episode and I are both marginally less cretinous.
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Old February 13 2014, 12:20 PM   #28
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
Hell---will they even understand what it means when the mothers' abdomens start to grow? Will there be horrific attempts to excise what will first appear to be unknown growths? Eeesh.
That's covered in Wrath of Akuta.

Akuta: "All of our women's bellies exploded nine months after we were left here. *admiral* Kirk never bothered to check on our progress."
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Old February 13 2014, 02:41 PM   #29
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
In response to Mr. Laser Beam: That raises an interesting question, though: if Vaal and Landru were created by the progenitors of the societies over which they preside, why wouldn't they be protected under the Prime Directive? Starfleet is forbidden to interfere with the development of alien cultures, full stop. I doubt it specifies what stage of development (other than that of spacefaring and warp capable, at which point they will by necessity be made aware of the very crowded galaxy they inhabit and deal with the influences of other spacefaring, warp capable civilizations) or allows the captain to disregard the directive if he finds the course the civilization has followed repugnant to his classically liberal sensibilities. If those civilizations, in the course of their "natural" development, decided upon stasis as their so-called endpoint it is still the result of their natural development.
But development shouldn't have an endpoint. It's an ongoing process as long as a species exists. Why should these people have to be trapped in perpetual slavery and stagnation just because some guy thousands of years ago decided they should? How is that ancient leader any less alien to the people alive today than interlopers from another planet?

The Prime Directive is not supposed to be a rigid, inviolable law that gives people an excuse to avoid thinking or taking responsibility for their choices. As Picard once said, "There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute." It's supposed to be a guideline that promotes responsible decision-making, that gives you pause to question your own motivations and biases before you decide whether intervention is the right option.

Besides, we don't even know who built Vaal. Why assume it was these people's ancestors? That doesn't even make sense. There's no indication that the Servants of Vaal have any kind of advanced technology in their past. There are no ruins, no relics of civilization, no legends of a lost golden age. It's always seemed more likely to me that Vaal was built by aliens, its control imposed on the villagers, perhaps as some sort of experiment.



Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
Wasn't Zahra security? Or am I confusing her with her IDW NuTrek counterpart?
She was a yeoman. Before they beamed down, Kirk told her, "I'll want a complete transcript of everything that happens down there, Yeoman." She was there to take notes.


Redfern wrote: View Post
Strudel, don't feel bad. For decades, most of us assumed the Vaalans were "feeding" their "god" fruits and veggies. But with the release of the Blu-Ray discs, the cleaned up footage allowed someone to notice, "Hey, that isn't fruit! They are those ^&*$ exploding rocks!" That observation was posted which prompted other fans to examine the footage. Sure enough, the objects within the baskets were indeed rocks.
Interesting. I guess that does make more sense. So maybe whoever built Vaal created the cult around it as a way to exploit cheap local labor to harvest fuel. Perhaps because the villagers were considered expendable, and the builders didn't mind if a few of them got blown up gathering rocks. That really doesn't sound to me like the kind of cultural arrangement that the villagers' ancestors would've made for their own community. It sounds like something imposed by outside exploiters. In which case the very existence of Vaal was a Prime Directive violation and Kirk was just undoing it.
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Old February 13 2014, 04:00 PM   #30
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Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

A Yeoman, wow! Is there a male security guard from any episode who you don't think she could have taken?? Besides that guy on the DS9 version of Trials and Tribulations in the bar scene...
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