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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old February 9 2014, 04:59 PM   #16
FKnight
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

According to Kirk in "Metamorphosis", the translator reads the brain wave patterns of the subject and matches them to known universal ideas known to be common to all forms of life.

In later years, it was established that this, in combination with the basic linguacode translation matrix, allows basic communication, with the translation becoming more and more accurate as a translation matrix for the specific language is further defined by continued use. After a while, it doesn't need to read brain wave patterns, as an adequate translation matrix is then in use for the particular species.

So essentially, with new species, the UT reads brain wave patterns, matches them up with linguacode to bootstrap basic conversation ability, and then learns as it goes, until eventually the thing is translating quickly and on the fly.

This scene is STILL stupid though:

Hoshi: Something called the Rom-illan Star Empire.
T'Pol: It's "Romulan"

In this scene, T'Pol is basically telling Hoshi that she is incorrectly pronouncing a brand new English word invented by Hoshi's translator to represent the Romulan word for their species.
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Old February 10 2014, 08:11 AM   #17
Mytran
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

FKnight wrote: View Post
Hoshi: Something called the Rom-illan Star Empire.
T'Pol: It's "Romulan"

In this scene, T'Pol is basically telling Hoshi that she is incorrectly pronouncing a brand new English word invented by Hoshi's translator to represent the Romulan word for their species.
Or that T'Pol is imposing the Vulcan word for the new species onto Hoshi - maybe Hoshi uses Vulcan translation algorithms in her Translation Matrix?

Or it could be that the new species actually calls itself "Romulans" - the similarity to Earth history a mere coincidence.


But it is a stupid scene, I agree.
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Old February 10 2014, 08:06 PM   #18
wildstar
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

Quite well, thank you. Damn, someone beat me to it!
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Old February 12 2014, 04:31 PM   #19
T'Girl
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

FKnight wrote: View Post
Hoshi: Something called the Rom-illan Star Empire.
T'Pol: It's "Romulan"
I've often wondered if Hoshi was right and T"Pol was wrong, Hoshi had just seconds before heard the world pronouced, she is skill in her craft and has a especially good ear for languages.

If Hoshi then programmed the translater she was working on (and that programming later made it's was into the UT) to rended Romillian as Romulan, the people in the show might have alway been using the wrong term.

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Old February 13 2014, 10:53 AM   #20
Maurice
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

How does the universal translator work?
  1. Press POWER
  2. Rotate upper dial to desired setting
  3. Start chatting

You're welcome.
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Old February 15 2014, 05:00 AM   #21
Nebusj
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

Maurice wrote: View Post
  1. Press POWER
  2. Rotate upper dial to desired setting
``And so, schoolchildren, it's generally accepted that the First Federation-Glornaxian War began when the communications officer on the USS Indefeasible mischievously set the translator output to `Elmer Fudd'.''
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Old March 7 2014, 05:52 AM   #22
Drone
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
There is actually a holographic emitter on each badge that makes everyone's mouths look like they're speaking the appropriate language... that or televison magic makes the universal translator work.

Forgive the foolishness of an utter newbie, but has there ever been even the slightest of hints as to an in-universe explanation of the above phenomena, or is it merely generically accepted in the manner of audible spatial sound effects, the presence, though never seen or referred to, of the good old WC, etc.
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Old March 11 2014, 04:08 PM   #23
Timo
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

Let's not forget that the human brain is already a Universal Translator. It takes gibberish for input and creates interpretations for output. Sometimes those happen to be correct interpretations; most often not. But the brain's one forte is self-deception: garbage in, wonderful truths out is what it was built for, and it achieves that by smoothing out the edges.

Terhe aer pelnyt of cloo emplaxse of tihs. Say, it didn't take your brain half a second of extra time to ignore the incorrect ordering of letters in that sentence; ignorance is the real human superpower.

The UT could easily exploit that. It wouldn't take much tickling of the brain to make us see the opponent's lips move in synch with what our ears are telling us (hell, we can do that without implanted brain-ticklers today!), nor to make us hear perfectly understandable phrases when alien speech hits our ears, an implant translates about 75% of it very coarsely on the way to the brain, and finally the brain does its usual ignoring on the input and spits out some understanding.

As for the translating of new languages vs. old ones, VOY "Basics" is a cool example of this actually making technological sense. As long as our heroes wear their commbadges, which connect them to the vast computing power of the starship, they can easily talk in English, Talaxian and Kazon alike. Once the badges are taken off them, they can still converse in all these languages, though (and no, we cannot really assume that Neelix would have learned perfect English, or that the random Kazon extras would have, or that our heroes would have mastered the alien languages - heck, for all we know, even Tuvok only speaks Vulcan, and relies on the UT to communicate with his comrades!). BUT without their badges, they cannot learn a new language, and cannot communicate with the local cavemen!

That logically follows if humans (like Ferengi) have implanted UTs that contain known languages but lack the computing power to translate unknown ones...

Or that T'Pol is imposing the Vulcan word for the new species onto Hoshi
Indeed. Just imagine how the scene would play out in slightly different circumstances:

Communications Officer T'Pol: "The giant unidentified ship is hailing us now. They identify themselves as the Nutsy Shterrnenrroich. Do you know anything about these people, Captain Archer?"
Archer (shivering): "Nazi. That's pronounced Nazi."
The trick here being, no actual Nazi would ever pronounce the word like the English do. In German, it's not Nooozzzy, it's Nutsy. Obviously, Romulans and Vulcans might have completely different ideas about how to pronounce the name of the former culture - and Vulcans would insist on their version, just like we'd insist on Nazi over Nutsy (despite the comical potential). We wouldn't dignify the name with its real, native pronunciation, and neither would T'Pol.

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Old March 11 2014, 04:45 PM   #24
Relayer1
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
How does the universal translator work?
Quite spiffingly, thank you very much.
Maurice wrote: View Post
How does the universal translator work?
  1. Press POWER
  2. Rotate upper dial to desired setting
  3. Start chatting

You're welcome.
Yeah, it just....works !
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Old March 11 2014, 09:25 PM   #25
Timo
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

...It might be one of those ancient things developed aeons ago by some civilization that no longer can be contacted for specs. Everybody knows how to build the things now, but nobody really understands how they work.

For a while, people liked to think that transporters were such a thing. Then it turned out that everybody had them in the 22nd century, and Earth had even developed its own seemingly independently. Even earlier on, people liked to think the same of warp drive, with the same disappointing conclusion... It does seem that amazingly alien and futuristic technologies are invented by lone inventor weirdos, while at the same time supposedly more conventional engineering teams with vastly greater physical and intellectual resources produce much humbler technologies. Which isn't quite as fantastic / scientifictional as these being alien technologies.

Although perhaps this is actually even more fantastic. How do these individuals come up with these impossible ideas, let alone the means to turn them into an industry single-handedly? Is somebody supernatural/fantastic/scientifictional whispering in their ear, introducing the idea and then walking the inventor all the way through to practical execution?

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Old March 11 2014, 11:04 PM   #26
Drone
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

[QUOTE=Timo;9346909]Let's not forget that the human brain is already a Universal Translator. It takes gibberish for input and creates interpretations for output. Sometimes those happen to be correct interpretations; most often not. But the brain's one forte is self-deception: garbage in, wonderful truths out is what it was built for, and it achieves that by smoothing out the edges.

Terhe aer pelnyt of cloo emplaxse of tihs. Say, it didn't take your brain half a second of extra time to ignore the incorrect ordering of letters in that sentence; ignorance is the real human superpower.

The UT could easily exploit that. It wouldn't take much tickling of the brain to make us see the opponent's lips move in synch with what our ears are telling us (hell, we can do that without implanted brain-ticklers today!), nor to make us hear perfectly understandable phrases when alien speech hits our ears, an implant translates about 75% of it very coarsely on the way to the brain, and finally the brain does its usual ignoring on the input and spits out some understanding.




Let me ask you to elaborate a bit more on this. It seems that you are suggesting that in addition to its basic function, the UT is also able to draw on some dataset that has archived a representation of how the articulation of the user's native language should visually appear when rendered, and is able to simultaneously track and then overlay this sensory input alongside the translated speech. If so, would you draw a distinction in these two capabilities?


I am not sure that in both instances one would necessarily say that the user's perceptions are being changed. As far as the translation piece, the individual is not actually hearing anything other than what their interlocutor(s) are actually saying, putting to the side any "extreme" idiomatic, syntactical or other constructions that are beyond the UT's capability to effectively discern. However seamlessly and without appreciable delay it is made available to the user, this output has presumably not been altered from how it is actually presented, including of course being heard in the other person's voice rather than a synthesized recreation. This does not seem different in substance than a super realized version of an old school Mission Impossible style gewgaw that might have portrayed a running instantaneous translation capability piped in through a cleverly hidden earpiece.


The appearance of articulation that is compatible and actually synonymous with the user's expectations does however represent an objective difference in the manifestation of the other's expression. This would seem to me to represent a material difference in the UT's operational capability. This requires an action being produced that allows either individual to see something that is not really present and presumably would not be captured by an independent view that is not also utilizing the same technology.


Am i barking up the wrong tree, going around the bend, etc. If so, perhaps I might be best advised to reevaluate my suitability to contribute to this august forum even though its still early days!
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Old March 11 2014, 11:41 PM   #27
Timo
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Re: How does the universal translator work?

It seems that you are suggesting that in addition to its basic function, the UT is also able to draw on some dataset that has archived a representation of how the articulation of the user's native language should visually appear when rendered, and is able to simultaneously track and then overlay this sensory input alongside the translated speech.
No. What I mean is that the human brain will automatically choose to believe in lipsynch. We need no machinery for that, no artificial sensory input. All we need is a distraction to keep us from consciously realizing that this Japanese movie character's lips don't actually form the English words "Prepare to die, honored fiendish fiend - Ha JAH!" - and the UT can provide such a distraction simply by "tickling" the brain the right way.

If so, would you draw a distinction in these two capabilities?
I would. The UT would take what the ear hears, analyze it like today's translation software analyzes signals picked up by a microphone, and alter it, and then feed it forward to the brain - that's the basic function. If necessary, it would also tickle the brain so that it doesn't notice that the lipsynch isn't perfect, and that the grammar doesn't quite work, and that there are many words missing - that's the relatively trivial second function.

However seamlessly and without appreciable delay it is made available to the user, this output has presumably not been altered from how it is actually presented, including of course being heard in the other person's voice rather than a synthesized recreation. This does not seem different in substance than a super realized version of an old school Mission Impossible style gewgaw that might have portrayed a running instantaneous translation capability piped in through a cleverly hidden earpiece.
I don't see any need to assume that the UT, situated either between the ear and the brain or then between the incoming noise and the brain (in this case sidestepping the ear altogether), would have to shy away from altering the incoming speech rather fundamentally - changing the voice from deep male to shrill female, say. I'd actually expect the UT to produce a fairly generic and unconvincing voice for the translation, as this would make its task easier: there would be no effort put to voice imitation, because the brain would eventually self-deceive itself into hearing something suitable anyway. A little bit of "tickling" would again help there.

Of course, the UT could be feeding its signals to the language center of the brain exclusively, leaving the timbre-oriented areas of the brain starved and allowing the brain to insert its own preferred timbre to the voice it does not really hear. All the brain is getting is the language, not the voice. A slightly more elaborate machine could tickle the brain into believing in a soothing female voice or a harsh Hungarian accent - not by actually simulating such things (remember, there's no voice coming in, only pure language), but by evoking the brain's own recollections of such things. One could then buy a suitable package of recollections; nothing as elaborate and fantastic as "Total Recall", merely a set of sound tapes one listens to, while the UT observes the reactions and writes some notes about the connections to specific brain activity for later use.

This requires an action being produced that allows either individual to see something that is not really present and presumably would not be captured by an independent view that is not also utilizing the same technology.
Yes, this would definitely be true of the lipsynch: if B hears A say English words, thanks to a UT inserted in the auditory nerve of B, he will fool himself into seeing English lip movements on A, especially if "tickled" - but if C, standing nearby, only hears A's original Japanese words, he will not see English lip movements. But that already happens naturally if you watch sufficiently many lipsynched movies in a row: your brain wraps itself around lipsynch without the need for special machinery (although e.g. booze helps).

Anyway, this is a confirmed feature of the UT: it allows B, C, D and E to hear the speech of A in their own respective languages simultaneously, without either B, C, D or E complaining about poor lipsynch. Explaining such things is best done if we ditch the idea of sound being manipulated (or else there'd be lots of overlapping and perhaps mutually destructive manipulation going on) and favor a model where the signal is being manipulated only after it has safely entered the user's noggin.

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