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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old February 12 2014, 03:45 PM   #106
Christopher
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

^That's right. Trelane not only admires Napoleon, he's aware of the death of Alexander Hamilton, which took place in 1804. Also, the Johann Strauss waltz he makes Uhura play on the harpsichord was composed in 1880.

The episode makes it clear that Trelane doesn't realize the significance of the speed-of-light lag in his observations:
JAEGER: Notice the period, Captain. Nine hundred light years from Earth. It's what might be seen through a viewing scope if it were powerful enough.
TRELANE: Ah, yes. I've been looking in on the doings on your lively little Earth.
KIRK: Then you've been looking in on the doings nine hundred years past.
TRELANE: Oh, really? Have I made an error in time? How fallible of me. Oh, I did so want to make you feel at home.
Thus, the episode explicitly establishes that the events of the 1800s -- as late as 1880 -- are 900 years before the episode, putting it in at least 2780. Although anachronistic music selections in fiction are not unheard of, and we could rationalize that maybe Trelane took the waltz from Uhura's memories, but that would still put the episode after the year 2704.
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Old February 12 2014, 03:58 PM   #107
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

About the only wiggle room is if Trelane were observing Earth via FTL, but not instantaneous FTL. Given his godlike powers, there's no reason to assume that he'd be limited to lightspeed observation of Earth. He catches up to the Enterprise and maneuvers Gothos at warp, after all. The blunder could simply be in Kirk and crew, Trelane's fault being not for his lack of raw power, but for allowing the crew's confusion to confuse him. Or maybe Trelane just enjoyed playing the fool. A bit of a fanwank, I admit, but there's a circle to square here.
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Old February 13 2014, 02:41 AM   #108
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Still, the 900 years of observational lag in Trelane's view, in my mind has nothing to do with the Enterprise's time lag.

Remember, "the time barrier's been broken!" . From any planet anywhere, looking back on Earth from there would show images relative to how many light-years distant it is. For the Enterprise also, once it arrives there, too. The ship basically comes from another time, and once there it 'abides by its rules'.

Am I missing something obvious? I still see it as the Enterprise being from whatever century it was relative to the distance and speed of its journey to get there.
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Old February 13 2014, 02:48 AM   #109
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Still, the 900 years of observational lag in Trelane's view, in my mind has nothing to do with the Enterprise's time lag.

Remember, "the time barrier's been broken!" . From any planet anywhere, looking back on Earth from there would show images relative to how many light-years distant it is. For the Enterprise also, once it arrives there, too. The ship basically comes from another time, and once there it 'abides by its rules'.

Am I missing something obvious? I still see it as the Enterprise being from whatever century it was relative to the distance and speed of its journey to get there.
Err, no. Star Trek has always made it pretty clear that warp drive doesn't involve time dilation or non-simultaneity -- "now" is "now" everywhere in the galaxy. For instance, Voyager was missing seven years both in their frame of reference and the Federation's, even though they were on opposite sides of the galaxy. And physics actually backs this up; the Alcubierre warp equation shows that the flow of time inside a warp bubble is identical to that of a "stationary" observer.

The dialogue I quoted could not be more clear: Alexander Hamilton, Napoleon, and Johann Strauss were "nine hundred years in the past." The writer of the episode assumed that the show was set in the 28th century, period, because the time frame of the series had not been clearly defined yet.
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Old February 13 2014, 05:28 PM   #110
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Christopher wrote: View Post
And physics actually backs this up; the Alcubierre warp equation shows that the flow of time inside a warp bubble is identical to that of a "stationary" observer.
I think the stardate mentioned in the rendezvous order from Commodore Probert and the one near Earth in TMP would support that.

Same applies for the stardate mentioned in the bridge simulator and the one the Reliant recorded near Ceti Alpha V in TWOK (but since it began in a simulation we can't be exactly sure)

Christopher wrote: View Post
The time frame of the series had not been clearly defined yet.
IIRC we already had a two century timeframe mentioned in various Season One TOS episodes prior to the "Squire"?

I wouldn't put to much into Trelane's account, who knows how he had been observing Earth's past.

Bob
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Old February 13 2014, 06:37 PM   #111
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Robert Comsol;9242893
I wouldn't put to much into Trelane's account, who knows [I wrote:

how[/I] he had been observing Earth's past.

Bob
This. Plus Trelane was just a child. A child with a lot of advanced abilities, sure, but still just a child. He might not have really understood time and spacevery completely.
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Old February 13 2014, 10:22 PM   #112
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

I'm not sure how anyone could interpret Kirk saying "Then you've been looking in on the doings nine hundred years past" when looking at stuff from the 19th century other than indicating Kirk himself coming from the 28th century. If there's an error being made, not just Trelane made it.
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Old February 13 2014, 11:46 PM   #113
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Yeah, I don't see the need to try to handwave it away. It's just a mistake -- or rather, an inconsistency arising from the producers not having settled on a timeframe yet. Just assume they said "four hundred years" instead of "nine hundred."
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Old February 14 2014, 02:58 AM   #114
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Yeah, I don't see the need to try to handwave it away. It's just a mistake -- or rather, an inconsistency arising from the producers not having settled on a timeframe yet. Just assume they said "four hundred years" instead of "nine hundred."
If only someone had read the de Forest Research notes for the episode, which included the following comment:

Then you’ve been looking in on doings nine hundred years past. Other scripts have placed Star Trek c. 200 years in the past, e.g. Shore Leave. That places this reference in the 13th century.
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Old February 14 2014, 02:59 AM   #115
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

What kind of "telescope" was Trelane using? Did he hear sounds and conversations as well? Was it just visual imaging and, if so, how much magnification did he get on that thing in order to get the notes to that waltz as well as know about specific individuals by name, such as Alexander Hamilton?
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Old February 14 2014, 03:17 AM   #116
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Shawnster wrote: View Post
...as well as know about specific individuals by name, such as Alexander Hamilton?
Maybe, as in The City on the Edge of Forever, he saw newspaper headlines such as 'Alexander Hamilton Killed In Duel'.
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Old February 14 2014, 03:24 AM   #117
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

But how would he know how the letters were pronounced?

The conceit seemed to be that he had some kind of Sufficiently Advanced Technology for observation, but one that was somehow lightspeed-limited. They didn't really think it through very well, since it was just an excuse to construct a story about an alien that could be affordably filmed by using props, costumes, and sets left over from historical productions.
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Old February 16 2014, 03:17 PM   #118
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Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Christopher wrote: View Post
But how would he know how the letters were pronounced?

The conceit seemed to be that he had some kind of Sufficiently Advanced Technology for observation, but one that was somehow lightspeed-limited. They didn't really think it through very well, since it was just an excuse to construct a story about an alien that could be affordably filmed by using props, costumes, and sets left over from historical productions.
A lot of confusion could have been avoided by a slight change in dialogue and by just using a general reference to "centuries in the past" rather than "nine hundred years in the past" or something to that effect.
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