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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old January 30 2014, 09:32 PM   #46
Crazy Eddie
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Re: If Nazi's had not been defeated space timeline reasonable?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
The so-called Third Reiche was unstable. Hitler was - rightfully - suspicious of those in his ranks. He would often freak out and act the fool, to keep them offguard, so they wouldn't know what to do with him, or how to read him. The Nazi Party was the product of its time, as I've said. Not only because it revolved around Hitler, but because books, newspapers and word of mouth were the only way information was kept and passed around. And the Nazi's made damn sure to burn or ban books containing ideas they were frightened by, or suspicious of, or just didn't like. The other side of that was the false propaganda, the official spin on their own wrongs and failings, and the outright lies that were necessary to keep a situation contained. And one of several reasons for their starting wars was, quite simply, to keep themselves in profit and power. The worst about this "Undefeated Nazi Timeline" is that it reveals just how ignorant its creators are about World War II.
Then I suggest one would have to amend this timeline to reflect the Nazis being involved in a long cold war with the US and/or the USSR. In light of the origins of WWII, as you and others have succinctly put it, the Nazis would have to keep the German people in a state of constant paranoia and hyper-angst in order to remain in power at all. The USSR at their eastern border as a constant existential threat (which indeed it would be) would be important for that condition, as would the USA's never-ending antipathy.

The other side of the coin is that an undefeated Nazi party possibly means an undefeated imperial Japan. This new speculative world is likely to be a VERY violent place with several enormous military industrial complexes competing for dominance in hot and cold wars. Wherner Von Braun would have plenty of opportunities to piggyback his exploratory agenda on the colossal funding of a Nazi ICBM program (just as he did in the USA after the war, just as Korolev did in the Soviet Union).
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Old January 31 2014, 01:10 AM   #47
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Re: If Nazi's had not been defeated space timeline reasonable?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
In Cosmos, Carl Sagan suggested that ancient Greek civilization had the potential of getting us interstellar travel sooner than we're going to get it, by thousands of years, if only scientific progress hadn't been suppressed by elitists such as Pythagoras and Plato.
I remember that. Sagan certainly had his off days...
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Old January 31 2014, 01:39 AM   #48
2takesfrakes
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Re: If Nazi's had not been defeated space timeline reasonable?

Australis wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Hitler was completely uninterested in the pursuit of the Atom Bomb and the Nazi Party never pursued it.
Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegi...water_sabotage
"What is certain is that Adolf Hitler never established the close connection to first-class scientific leadership that both Churchill and Roosevelt enjoyed. Indeed, by a peculiar irony, Hitler's decisive contribution to the age of atomic weapons was the fear he provoked in others of what he might do. Although that fear was crucial to Roosevelt's decision to make a bomb, the historical record shows that Hitler's Germany never even tried."

The New York Times: HITLER & THE BOMB
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/13/ma...ted=all&src=pm
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Old January 31 2014, 01:47 AM   #49
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Re: If Nazi's had not been defeated space timeline reasonable?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Then I suggest one would have to amend this timeline.
I am familiar with Stalin's Russia, up to a point. The Fifties do not particularly interest me, in general. I'm familiar with the "Forgotten War," of course and the Red Scare in the States and Elvis and whatever. But all-in-all I would be more of an observer, on this debate.
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Old February 4 2014, 12:56 AM   #50
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Re: If Nazi's had not been defeated space timeline reasonable?

Though much of the early work on reusable spacecraft followed the inspiration of the Sänger-Bredt Silverbird, several German rocket engineers brought to the United States under the auspices of Project Paperclip had already participated in an attempt to develop and fly a lifting-reentry vehicle. In the midst of the Second World War, engineers working on the development of the A-4 (V2) rocket at Pëenemunde had examined a wide variety of concepts for multi-stage launch vehicles, some of which used winged upper stages.

One such effort was the A-9/A-10 combination of 1944, which was envisioned by its developers as a large booster (the A-10) topped by a winged second stage (A-9) capable of delivering a one ton warhead on a target 3,000 miles away. The A-10 would boost the second-stage A-9 into the upper atmosphere, and then fall away to its destruction. The A-9 would fire its engine, continue down-range in a ballistic are, then transition to a terminal glide at Mach 3.5 towards its target. An alternate idea placed a single-seat cockpit in the A-9, along with a tricycle landing gear. The entire vehicle would be launched vertically and then glide to a conventional landing after a 400 mile Mach 2.0 flight. An orbital version of the A-9, launched by a two-stage A-11/A-12 booster capable of lifting 60,000 pounds to an orbiting space station, was under study at the war's end.

In a totally separate, but related, effort Ludwig Roth supervised the design and building of two swept-wing derivatives of the A-4. The first of these winged A-4b (“bastard”) vehicles crashed and exploded shortly after launch on 8 January 1945. The second, launched 24 January, reportedly exited the Earth's atmosphere, completed a stable ballistic reentry and began a Mach 4.0 glide to Earth. During the glide one of the wings separated from the vehicle, probably from unexpectedly high flight loads, and the A-4b broke up. If this report is true, and all available sources confirm it is, this would have been the first man-made object placed into space. The German winged reentry research efforts were terminated as the war in Europe came to an end in 1945, and neither the United States, nor the Soviet Union, seemed particularly interested in continuing it.
Space Shuttle: The History of Developing the National Space Transportation System by Dennis R. Jenkins, p. 2, first edition 1992, 1993.
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Old February 5 2014, 08:46 AM   #51
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Re: If Nazi's had not been defeated space timeline reasonable?

I spent the weekend with my parents (both born in the late 1930s) and mentioned this thread. To my surprise they both completely agreed with the timeline suggested in this thread's initial post and would actually have judged the development to have been even faster.

Their reasons were utterly different from all of our speculations, though. They say that Wernher von Braun was the driving force behind all that. The Nazis themselves were not interested in rocket science at all. But von Braun wanted not continue his research from the theory to the practical use as a weapon and beyond that as a vehicle. Von Braun was famous and internationally acknowledged and so the Nazis did anything he wanted just to keep him (just for the prestige of having the best scientists).
When he saw no chance to continue in Germany (for reasons of there being no money, no raw materials and last but not least for having lost the war) he went with the winner - in a most literal way.
Without him, my parents reckon, the Nazis would have let the rocket programme die instantly as they had neither an interest in it not an understanding for the possibilities it offered.

The latter my parents deem to be a typical German character flaw. We have ingenuious ideas but never get through completely with them, so that others can exploit them.
They may be right with most German inventions like the fridge, the washing machine or the lipstick, but personally I am very glad that Oppenheimer and Co. built their nuclear bomb in America instead of over here, so that at least this weight is off my people's conscience.
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Last edited by rhubarbodendron; February 5 2014 at 08:52 AM. Reason: edited for spelling and grammar
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Old February 5 2014, 09:32 AM   #52
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Re: If Nazi's had not been defeated space timeline reasonable?

It might have been mentioned before, but I always thought Robert Harris' Fatherland was a good what if scenario. Germany never lost the war and ruled over most of Europe, and thus the Nazi crimes were never uncovered and nobody knew the Holocaust ever happened.

HBO did a decent adaption of it starring Rutger Hauer, where we also got to see the Speer's and Hitler's architecture plans realized.
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Old February 8 2014, 07:52 PM   #53
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Re: If Nazi's had not been defeated space timeline reasonable?

The latter isn't that far-fetched. The huge meeting hall Hitler started in Nuremberg was in ruins when last I saw it (about a decade ago). But they now restored it and put a roof on top. It's now a documentation center. It's a huge building. The outer rim is finished. The inner court was supposed to be covered by a huge roof to make a congress hall of unique dimensions.
This is what it was planned to look like:

This is how it looked a decade ago when it was used as parking lot for cars confiscated by the police (actually it looked far worse but I couldn't find a photo)

And now it looks like this:


I take it Fatherland is a book? Gotta read it (unless it's on the index, over here)
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Old February 9 2014, 10:18 AM   #54
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Re: If Nazi's had not been defeated space timeline reasonable?

If Germany had won the war... Heinrich James Kirk would be in command of an interstellar Haunebu starship, at this time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haunebu

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Old February 9 2014, 10:46 PM   #55
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Re: If Nazi's had not been defeated space timeline reasonable?

Actually I think we would be less advanced. Had Germany won, Korolev dies forgotten, or perhaps killed by SS men who didn't freeze to death.

Germany holds onto Europe, defeats the UK and invades it, and demolishes their war fighting capability.

Von Braun is then kicked to the curb, with the Nazi war machine focused on 'more important' things.

For the UFO crowd, maybe the Nordic Venusians came from a different alternate universe, and were trying to make up for past ills.
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Old February 12 2014, 01:59 PM   #56
rhubarbodendron
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Re: If Nazi's had not been defeated space timeline reasonable?

who needs Venusians when there's already a Daenicken?
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