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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old February 10 2014, 12:45 AM   #16
Hober Mallow
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

Picard's nephew not only changed appearance, but somehow didn't age a day in four years. In fact, I think he actually grew younger.
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Old February 10 2014, 03:08 AM   #17
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

If we're talking about the picture that Picard was looking at in Generations...how do we know that it wasn't an old one?

Likewise, the Nexus was a fantasy...Picard may have been imagining Rene as he remembered last seeing him.
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Old February 10 2014, 06:00 AM   #18
CrazyMatt
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

It looked like this, didn't it?

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Old February 10 2014, 06:34 AM   #19
Dukhat
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

Isn't that the Enterprise-D getting blown up in "Cause and Effect?"
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Old February 10 2014, 06:37 AM   #20
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Isn't that the Enterprise-D getting blown up in "Cause and Effect?"
Well, one Enterprise blows up just as good as another!
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Old February 10 2014, 07:02 AM   #21
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Picard's nephew not only changed appearance, but somehow didn't age a day in four years. In fact, I think he actually grew younger.
The Picards are likely Changelings. After all,Jean-Luc changed his appearance quite a bit over the years!









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Old February 10 2014, 07:18 AM   #22
Dukhat
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

^What's funny is that the guy with the knife in his chest and mini-Picard look more like Patrick Stewart than Tom Hardy does.
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Old February 10 2014, 04:51 PM   #23
Robert Comsol
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

Hello everyone and thanks for the feedback. I would have liked to come back earlier, but it’s good to see new points and evidence have come up (and focus on the significance of the TNG sculpture walls for this moment) during my absence (Yes, I’m aware that apparently some would like to see my absence to be more of a permanent kind ).

The one thing which counterproductively influences this kind of debate, IMHO, is that “Enterprise-C” and “Ambassador Class” are often discussed in a synonymous context (Enterprise-C = Ambassador Class). As far as I know Andrew Probert coined “Ambassador Class” for his design and that it was somewhat “hijacked” for the distinct Sternbach design (could they not have used another name, then?). Let’s just say it’s a revision and Sternbach’s design is the Ambassador Class of which we did see several representatives. What we see on the wall of the conference lounge is an Enterprise-C belonging to a different class, then, or maybe it’s the primary hull which foremost indicates the class a ship belongs to.

The TNG conference lounge sculpture wall
was approved and authenticated by the original TOS & TNG producers/creators Gene Roddenberry and Bob Justman, so I think that accounts for quite a lot (especially given its onscreen exposure during the first four seasons - and beyond “Yesterday’s Enterprise”) and takes precedence over the sculpture walls of the Enterprise-E (just in case we intend to talk about intentions, I think “first comes, first served” is appropriate).

The theme of the “D” sculpture wall is obviously clear (“large ships named Enterprise”) because of the presence of the aircraft carrier CVN-65 USS Enterprise.

With the sculpture walls of the “E” it is not. CVN-65 is missing. Then the theme is “spaceships named Enterprise”? Apparently not, because the ringship XCV-330 is missing. Is it “warp drive spaceships named Enterprise”? Fans of ENT will notice that the Enterprise NX-01 is missing, so apparently that’s not the theme neither. So what is the theme?

The one thing that is noticeable is the representation of a design lineage from the Constitution/Enterprise Starship Class to the latest Sovereign Starship Class, i.e. a vessel with a primary hull connected to a secondary hull to which the warp nacelles attach.

The Probert design for the Enterprise-C is absent; instead we find a sculpture of an Ambassador Class Starship for which Dukhat provided an image. In post # 10 King Daniel provided a screencap from “The Nagus” which apparently shows a representation of the aforementioned design lineage. Probert’s “C” is not there, but neither is the “B” from ST VII.

Apparently it’s a design variation (with “bumpers”) of which not that many were actually built (I don’t remember seeing many of these in TNG and DS9) and the same possibly applies for the Probert “C” (the aircraft carrier CVN-65 was the first and last carrier of its class, IIRC).

On the other hand it’s entirely possible that Picard had simply become fed up listening to alien visitors (especially someone like Gul Macet or Dukhat) waiting in the conference lounge of the “D” wondering “Ain’t that the proud Enterprise that was defeated by the Romulans?!” – that could also be an in-universe explanation why the sculpture wall was removed at the beginning of Season Five and a new theme chosen for the “E”.

That the “B” on the sculpture wall of NCC-1701-D does not look like the (retcon) “B” in ST VII is no proof whatsoever that the sculpture wall is not an accurate presentation because we do not know which point (and look of the ship) during her service time it’s supposed to represent.

But I think it it’s unlikely that the sculpture wall shows the starships in their launch configuration because we did see the “B” in ST VII - which then was obviously retro-fitted at a later time and then looked a lot like your regular Excelsior (I never understood what these bumpers were supposed to be good for in the first place).

The sculptures are admittedly raw and rough representations of the real thing but not “impressionistic”.

Their individual features are sufficiently discernible to see it’s the aircraft carrier CVN-65 (cubical conning tower) and to distinct NCC-1701 from NCC-1701-A and so on.
And it’s sufficiently discernible to realize that the Enterprise-C on display is most definitely not the Sternbach design we saw in “Yesterday’s Enterprise” but the (most) accurate reproduction of the side view guidance Andrew Probert provided the sculptor with which itself reflects his concept for the USS Fearless and that particular starship class.

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
The truth behind the discrepancy: The version shown in "Yesterday's Enterprise" was the real McCoy; the version on the observation lounge wall was sculpted by a 24th-century descendant of Robert Comsol...one who was obsessed with an early, unused concept drawing of the Ambassador class.
That’s a good one! I’ll make sure to pass that on to my grand-children!

While my infatuation for Andrew Probert’s Enterprise-C is no secret, the core issue of this thread (and that’s what I wrote Bernd Schneider this weekend) is that I object the flippancy and apparent ease how Andrew Probert’s Enterprise-C on the conference lounge wall of the “D” (onscreen > canon) has been pushed over the cliff into the abyss of fanwank while the “evidence” (that his cannot be the “real” Enterprise-C) actually depends on how to interpret the enigmatic space anomaly and its effects and the events seen in “Yesterday’s Enterprise” and what conclusions we can actually draw from it.

Put simply: Before I discredit a starship design of a renowned member of Star Trek production (unless there is some jealousy I’m not aware of according to which no man should be allowed to design more than two Enterprise starships in his lifetime ) as non-canon, I better make sure I have solid evidence beyond a shred of doubt to make such kind of judgement…and in Part II we shall see and - if you like - discuss how “solid” the evidence actually is.

Bob
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Old February 10 2014, 06:30 PM   #24
Hober Mallow
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

What's the difference between the ENT B on the ENT D wall and the ship we saw in "Generations?" I'm not seeing it. It's just an Excelsior class, isn't it?
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Old February 10 2014, 06:37 PM   #25
Dukhat
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

Wow. I'm really at a loss as to how someone can be so obsessive over one particular instance of something in the Trek universe being overwritten by something else. Do you also religiously think James Kirk's middle initial is "R?"

I really doubt there was all that much of a "malicious intent" to just forget the former design as you're making it out to be. They needed to build a model for the Ent-C. To build it the way Probert intended would have been cost-prohibitive. So they built it in a way to save time and money, but still based it off of the original design and tried to get it as close as they could. This drama you're alluding about shitting all over Probert's design is quite unwarranted.

Also, you seem to have adopted the attitude that no matter what evidence we throw at you to counter your argument, you're just going to negate it with stuff like this:

The TNG conference lounge sculpture wall
was approved and authenticated by the original TOS & TNG producers/creators Gene Roddenberry and Bob Justman, so I think that accounts for quite a lot (especially given its onscreen exposure during the first four seasons - and beyond “Yesterday’s Enterprise”) and takes precedence over the sculpture walls of the Enterprise-E (just in case we intend to talk about intentions, I think “first comes, first served” is appropriate).

The theme of the “D” sculpture wall is obviously clear (“large ships named Enterprise”) because of the presence of the aircraft carrier CVN-65 USS Enterprise.

With the sculpture walls of the “E” it is not. CVN-65 is missing. Then the theme is “spaceships named Enterprise”? Apparently not, because the ringship XCV-330 is missing. Is it “warp drive spaceships named Enterprise”? Fans of ENT will notice that the Enterprise NX-01 is missing, so apparently that’s not the theme neither. So what is the theme?
None of the above matters. The theme for FC was that the ships represented all the Enterprises. Why? Because John Eaves said so, and he trumps whatever some fan on the TrekBBS thinks. Plus, each of his models is named the Enterprise, as can clearly be seen here.

But I gotta admire your chutzpah. You write up an extensive diatribe, to which not a single person who replied agreed with, and you still keep trucking with an even longer diatribe and make it sound like none of us know what we're talking about. Can't wait for "Part II."
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Last edited by Dukhat; February 11 2014 at 09:35 AM.
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Old February 10 2014, 08:37 PM   #26
MikeS
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
What's the difference between the ENT B on the ENT D wall and the ship we saw in "Generations?" I'm not seeing it. It's just an Excelsior class, isn't it?
Seconded.
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Old February 10 2014, 09:22 PM   #27
Boris Skrbic
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

I'm for keeping it simple and consistent with the canon. We start with the original intent of ships named Enterprise, but the idea can be adjusted without distorting the spirit of the display. So they aren't necessarily ships named Enterprise, but they can still be breakthrough designs, most of which were used for an Enterprise because of the famous name. Probert's version was just such a breakthrough, but it never entered widespread production and the Enterprise-C was developed using Sternbach's version of the design. Likewise, the "Great Experiment" in that same display was not identical to the later Enterprise-B.
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Old February 10 2014, 09:53 PM   #28
George Steinbrenner
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
What's the difference between the ENT B on the ENT D wall and the ship we saw in "Generations?" I'm not seeing it. It's just an Excelsior class, isn't it?
The version of the Enterprise-B seen in Generations had added bits on the secondary hull.

The reason that was done is because physical models were still used at that point (1994), and they needed to be able to depict battle damage without damaging the rest of the Excelsior-class model. So the added bits were placed there, where the Nexus damage would later occur.
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Old February 10 2014, 10:00 PM   #29
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

The discrepancy between the wall sculpture and what we saw in YE clearly has Section 31 written all over it. Just what was the Enterprise-C doing at Narendra III and were they in fact defending the outpost from Romulans or were they assisting the Romulans in the attack? We may never know for sure, but there was certainly a cover up. Could the Romulans have had orders from their TalShiar handlers, working with Section 31, to destroy Enterprise-C once the outpost was destroyed to get rid of the evidence? Perhaps then, Section 31 subsequently altered the records to make it look like the Enterprise-C was of a different class than the one seen at Narendra III attacking the outpost.

I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just asking questions.
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Old February 11 2014, 02:46 AM   #30
Lance
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Re: What did the Enterprise-C look like in the real TNG universe?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
MikeS wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
What's the difference between the ENT B on the ENT D wall and the ship we saw in Generations? I'm not seeing it. It's just an Excelsior class, isn't it?
Seconded.
The version of the Enterprise-B seen in Generations had added bits on the secondary hull.

The reason that was done is because physical models were still used at that point (1994), and they needed to be able to depict battle damage without damaging the rest of the Excelsior-class model. So the added bits were placed there, where the Nexus damage would later occur.
Absolutely. There's a few extra flanges and such added to other parts of the both primary and secondary hulls as well.

The idea was that it had to be an Excelsior class (because it'd already been established as such via the wall display on TNG), but the producers of the movie wanted it to look different enough, while still being instantly recognizable as an Excelsior, that it would give audiences something new. So the overall effect is that the 1701-B ends up looking like a "bigger and tougher" version of the other, regular Excelsior Class ships.** Whereas the TNG wall display is simply that of a regular Excelsior Class with no extra bits.

** At least, for shots where they filmed new effects. There are one or two shots where they simply recycled stock footage of the regular Excelsior and hoped no-one'd notice... but, of course, we did.
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