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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 9 2014, 01:08 PM   #136
2takesfrakes
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

Ezri would do ... in a pinch! After all, under the darkest cover of night, a cottonseed is the same as a pearle, is it not?
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Old February 9 2014, 07:36 PM   #137
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

Tosk wrote: View Post
FreedPhotons wrote: View Post
The "i'm bubbly and innocent and sweet and cute but deep inside I hurt" act go so old, so fast. As far as I'm concerned she's the ultimate Mary-Sue.
What do those things have to do with being a Mary Sue? The term seems to be thrown around now as lazy shorthand for complaining about any female character.
Really? As far as I know, she falls into just about every Marye-Sue cliché I know.

> Beautiful: check
> Quarky and cutely clumsy (which offsets her beauty and makes her just *adorable*): check
> Beloved by everyone instantly: check
> Has one of the main characters fall in love with her instantly: check
> Has a "dark" / "sad" past that she tries to keep secret but which is finally found out and supported by all other characters: check
> Wants to be "normal" but has an incredible future thrust upon her: check (here: being unexpectedly joined)
> Rule-bending uniqueness: check (Trills are supposed to train for life to have a Symbiont but she doesn't!)
> Action-stealer: check (she appears out of nowhere in season 7 and suddenly every other episode features her very prominently in action scenes even though she's just supposed to be a counselor)

> etc...

Honestly at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the writers' daughter's name was Ezri... It doesn't matter that some of these are somehow justified by her being Trill - she didn't have to be this way because she's a made-up character: Jadzia was a Trill too and she wasn't like that, so all these Mary-Sue characteristics are unique to Ezri.
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Old February 9 2014, 08:15 PM   #138
Greg Cox
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

Tosk wrote: View Post
FreedPhotons wrote: View Post
The "i'm bubbly and innocent and sweet and cute but deep inside I hurt" act go so old, so fast. As far as I'm concerned she's the ultimate Mary-Sue.
What do those things have to do with being a Mary Sue? The term seems to be thrown around now as lazy shorthand for complaining about any female character.
Yeah, it's become about as meaningless as "jumping the shark" or "politically correct."
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Old February 9 2014, 08:23 PM   #139
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

One of the requirements of being a Mary Sue is to be talented at everything. Ezri had some skill transfer from Dax but she wasn't portrayed as more than merely competent. And she wasn't hurt deep down, she was hurt right on the surface.

Honestly Jadzia exhibits more 'Mary Sue' characteristics than Ezri. She's the one with a zillion fields of expertise.
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Old February 10 2014, 04:36 AM   #140
Tosk
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

FreedPhotons wrote: View Post
> Quarky and cutely clumsy (which offsets her beauty and makes her just *adorable*): check
Surely she was less Quarky than Armin Shimerman though?

Seriously though, you're reaching way too hard to try and make her fit a mold. A Mary Sue is a wish-fulfillment character, not just any female that possesses positive attributes. Heaven forbid a TV character be beautiful, have relationships, and a past!

As Jirin mentioned, Jadzia has way more in common with a Mary Sue, and even she still doesn't count as one. Not even close.
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Old February 10 2014, 08:16 AM   #141
JD5000
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

Not much of a scroller, so sorry if someone else already mentioned this. I find it odd that a space station in one of the most remote Federation areas dealing with the aftermath of a decades-long brutal occupation didn't have a counselor before Ezri came along. Seems like Starfleet puts psychiatrists in the same places they put physicians, in anything I can think of.

EDIT: ^ OK, that's inaccurate. Voyager doesn't have a dedicated shrink, so that blows my theory out of the water. Still seems like DS9 would be a pretty darn logical place for a Starfleet psychologist to get deployed, some Vulcan should have thought of that.

Last edited by JD5000; February 10 2014 at 10:08 AM.
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Old February 10 2014, 03:12 PM   #142
grendelsbayne
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

JD5000 wrote: View Post
Not much of a scroller, so sorry if someone else already mentioned this. I find it odd that a space station in one of the most remote Federation areas dealing with the aftermath of a decades-long brutal occupation didn't have a counselor before Ezri came along. Seems like Starfleet puts psychiatrists in the same places they put physicians, in anything I can think of.

EDIT: ^ OK, that's inaccurate. Voyager doesn't have a dedicated shrink, so that blows my theory out of the water. Still seems like DS9 would be a pretty darn logical place for a Starfleet psychologist to get deployed, some Vulcan should have thought of that.
To be fair, DS9 was not a standard Federation outpost. We don't know what the details of the Federation's agreement with Bajor actually were. It's entirely possible the Fed. Council offered an entire suite of psychological help along with medical aid, but the Bajorans declined. Or it's entirely possible that any psychological aid would have been sent to the surface of Bajor, and not to Deep Space Nine.
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Old February 10 2014, 06:07 PM   #143
FreedPhotons
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
FreedPhotons wrote: View Post
The "i'm bubbly and innocent and sweet and cute but deep inside I hurt" act go so old, so fast. As far as I'm concerned she's the ultimate Mary-Sue.
What do those things have to do with being a Mary Sue? The term seems to be thrown around now as lazy shorthand for complaining about any female character.
Yeah, it's become about as meaningless as "jumping the shark" or "politically correct."
I think I have made the effort to state my case in particular detail, so no, I don't think it's a "lazy short-hand" or "meaningless". I don't say that about other female heroines. Just her.
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Old February 10 2014, 11:16 PM   #144
JD5000
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

grendelsbayne wrote:
To be fair, DS9 was not a standard Federation outpost. We don't know what the details of the Federation's agreement with Bajor actually were. It's entirely possible the Fed. Council offered an entire suite of psychological help along with medical aid, but the Bajorans declined. Or it's entirely possible that any psychological aid would have been sent to the surface of Bajor, and not to Deep Space Nine.
I wasn't considering psychological assistance for the Bajoran people, just the Starfleet officers on the 'frontier' dealing with occupation clean-up duty. Although it doesn't look too bad to me, life on DS9 is portrayed as a lot less cushy than the average Starfleet officer would be used to. TNG establishes the 'counselor' position as really coddly with Troi, the day to day pressure on the Enterprise was at least as potentially troubling as life on DS9.

I think a Dr. Phil cameo would have been great if the timelines had collided a little differently!

Phil Dax....that makes me laugh.
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Old February 11 2014, 12:25 AM   #145
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Ezri would do ... in a pinch! After all, under the darkest cover of night, a cottonseed is the same as a pearle, is it not?
Quit this. Posts like this are garbage posts that do nothing more than reduce women to prizes to be won, and objects to exploit. If you were unaware before, that your posts are creepy and sexist, then you know now. So let this be a relevation: Women do not need you. At all. They certainly don't need your willingness to bed them under cover of night. I'm quite certain they could be disappointed by your ministrations in the light of day as well.

Have a nice day.
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Old February 11 2014, 12:40 AM   #146
dub
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

JD5000 wrote: View Post
TNG establishes the 'counselor' position...
Since DS9 didn't have a counselor at the beginning, and since Voyager didn't have one, it's not a stretch to assume the position isn't standard and is per request of the commanding officer. Perhaps Sisko was waiting to see what the situation was like at DS9 before creating a position like that, then the war came and hiring a counselor was probably the last thing on his mind. Then Vic Fontaine in a way pretty much became the counselor anyway. And then when Sisko's old friend Dax now had the qualifications, it made sense to create that position to keep his friend, the old man, around.
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Old February 11 2014, 12:45 AM   #147
Misfit Toy
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Ezri would do ... in a pinch! After all, under the darkest cover of night, a cottonseed is the same as a pearle, is it not?
How old ARE you?
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Old February 11 2014, 12:46 AM   #148
Yanks
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

dub wrote: View Post
JD5000 wrote: View Post
TNG establishes the 'counselor' position...
Since DS9 didn't have a counselor at the beginning, and since Voyager didn't have one, it's not a stretch to assume the position isn't standard and is per request of the commanding officer. Perhaps Sisko was waiting to see what the situation was like at DS9 before creating a position like that, then the war came and hiring a counselor was probably the last thing on his mind. Then Vic Fontaine in a way pretty much became the counselor anyway. And then when Sisko's old friend Dax now had the qualifications, it made sense to create that position to keep his friend, the old man, around.
I think the counselor position was on the "D" because families were onboard.
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Old February 11 2014, 12:50 AM   #149
JD5000
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

DS9 could hold almost 7x as many people as the Enterprise-D, and there was a reasonably proportionate portrayal of the percentage of those residents that were families with children.

dub wrote:
it's not a stretch to assume the position isn't standard and is per request of the commanding officer.
I think that's plausible, the 'counselor' role and it's need is pretty open to conjecture, I think it's one of the less-defined positions.
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Old February 11 2014, 03:05 AM   #150
CorporalClegg
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

FreedPhotons wrote: View Post
Tosk wrote: View Post
FreedPhotons wrote: View Post
The "i'm bubbly and innocent and sweet and cute but deep inside I hurt" act go so old, so fast. As far as I'm concerned she's the ultimate Mary-Sue.
What do those things have to do with being a Mary Sue? The term seems to be thrown around now as lazy shorthand for complaining about any female character.
Really? As far as I know, she falls into just about every Marye-Sue cliché I know.

> Beautiful: check
> Quarky and cutely clumsy (which offsets her beauty and makes her just *adorable*): check
> Beloved by everyone instantly: check
> Has one of the main characters fall in love with her instantly: check
> Has a "dark" / "sad" past that she tries to keep secret but which is finally found out and supported by all other characters: check
> Wants to be "normal" but has an incredible future thrust upon her: check (here: being unexpectedly joined)
> Rule-bending uniqueness: check (Trills are supposed to train for life to have a Symbiont but she doesn't!)
> Action-stealer: check (she appears out of nowhere in season 7 and suddenly every other episode features her very prominently in action scenes even though she's just supposed to be a counselor)

> etc...

Honestly at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the writers' daughter's name was Ezri... It doesn't matter that some of these are somehow justified by her being Trill - she didn't have to be this way because she's a made-up character: Jadzia was a Trill too and she wasn't like that, so all these Mary-Sue characteristics are unique to Ezri.
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