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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old February 8 2014, 03:07 AM   #436
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
I wouldn't--I thought he Nibiru stuff (Enterprise cum Seaview included) was pretty rad. I liked that Kirk. And I liked the way they showed his budding love for Spock--one year is plenty of time for t'hy'las to realize they are t'hy'las. Hell, Edith Keeler saw it in TOS's fisrt season and I figure Kirk and Spock were frinds for a little over a year there.

I really like these movies, folks. I just wish Pine's Kirk had a bit more of Shatner's first season gravitas.
Actors of today, sadly or not, are not trained the same way as actors of the mid-20th. Even Pine's dad, a competent enough actor himself, is not in the same category as those just a decade before.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if a group of aspiring actors were isolated from modern TV and theater and were trained in the same way as Shatner and Nimoy and Warner and Plummer. We might see some actors come out who could do the broad style of days gone by.

Of course, they'd likely be dismissed as hammy.
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Old February 8 2014, 04:24 AM   #437
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Also, the nerds writing modern day Trek don't really know what a good guy is--we've been steeped in this shitty "bad boy" archetype (ooooh, they're so sexy) for so long that the complexity written into Kirk--particularly, the Kirk of the first season--is beyond them.
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Old February 8 2014, 06:52 AM   #438
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Also, the nerds writing modern day Trek don't really know what a good guy is--we've been steeped in this shitty "bad boy" archetype (ooooh, they're so sexy) for so long that the complexity written into Kirk--particularly, the Kirk of the first season--is beyond them.
I don't know... I think it's still perfectly possible to get convincing, heroic good guys off the pen of modern writers if that's what they're tasked with delivering. And I don't think there's any deficiency in Chris Pine's acting chops, far from it. It's that the character of Kirk has been written to be a younger, more adolescent version of himself, one that jives with what pop culture remembers about Kirk's traits and that also "appeals to a younger demographic"*; in fact the whole cast are younger versions of themselves, per the perpetually-unrealized Starfleet Academy idea that's been floating around forever.

Actually this wouldn't be a terrible idea if we were watching Kirk learning how to be a Starfleet officer and working his way up the ranks, he's only unconvincing because he's been thrown into the Captain's chair because Kirk Must Be Captain, with no sign that he's actually a leader of men. There are characters in NuTrek that look and feel convincingly like leaders of men: Pike (whose only unconvincing trait is that he keeps trying to secure commands for Kirk) is one; another is Robau, who is every inch a disciplined, heroic, hard-charging Captain for all five of his minutes onscreen and has acquired a curiously disproportionate following as a result. (Honestly... I'd kind of like to see that guy's adventures. He was pretty compelling. )

* I imagine to be the reasoning, anyway. Although I've never understood this persistent notion that you need the characters to be adolescent in order to appeal to a younger demographic. The younger demographic, it seems to me, doesn't go to adventure fiction wanting to watch the heroes being awkward teenagers; they idolize and fantasize about being accomplished adults, minus the need to worry about bills. But it's one of those self-reinforcing entertainment industry memes that seems to be unkillable.
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Old February 8 2014, 07:40 AM   #439
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Indeed. Robau was great--George Kirk was in that mold, too, I think.

Kirk is a hard charcter to get a handle on, I think, because he doesn't easily reduce to a type.
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Old February 8 2014, 08:36 AM   #440
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Oh snap, I almost forgot about this:

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
One doesn't have to dig deep into the ass end . . .
... and thank you for that mental image, BTW...

. . . of TOS Trek, among "The Alternative Factor" or "Wink of an Eye", to find examples of Trek not being scientific.
But that of course was not at issue. What was at issue was examples of comparable ridiculousness to the Hobus supernova, which is on a whole other level from whether the term "impulse" is used consistently or the precise mechanics of reentry in "The Naked Time."

Figuring out what is comparable to what is complicated in itself, sometimes, but is complicated all the further by the urge many a continuity tailgunner seems to have to convince themselves that their interlocutor is unfairly nitpicking and obsessing over tiny details. But stuff like Red Matter or the Hobus supernova is not about obsessing over tiny details; it's about overall issues of quality of storytelling and of believability.

Like I said earlier, I'm glad you brought up the TOS Writer's Guide, because it provides an opportunity to set a better frame for this kind of discussion, one that's more faithful to Trek's original goals and distinguishing characteristics. And so:



So when I'm saying that NuTrek ought to be allowed to stand on its own merits and that defense-by-precedent is a fairly useless exercise, I guess that's what I'm really getting at.

And I think that's all I've gots to say on that score, too. I leave last word to you if you'd like it, many thanks for an interesting discussion.
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Old February 8 2014, 05:19 PM   #441
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Kirk is a hard charcter to get a handle on, I think, because he doesn't easily reduce to a type.
Hmmm? Shatner's depiction was simply that of a very 60's style leading man. Liberal (relative to the time). Verile. Sensitive, but also strong.

Pine's depiction does not just reduce to type, but stereotype.
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Old February 8 2014, 05:31 PM   #442
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

So Abrams' Trek is objectively worse than prior Trek... because we must grade it on a different scale. ( Which really means... )

At this point there's really only one place left for the rearguard-action posse to go, isn't there?

Death panels.

NuTrek is a job killer!
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Old February 8 2014, 05:56 PM   #443
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

And Prime Kirk would have hunted the damned thing down with the intention of killing it.
Right, just like he did in Devil In The Dark! Only in Devil In The Dark he had the opportunity to make a coup de grace, and just because in those few seconds the creature wasn't acting aggressive he saved its life. He would have reacted the same way in Silicon Avatar, and taken any opportunity he got to neutralize it as a threat without killing it.
Apple and oranges the Horta didn't have to eat people to survive. So it would be closer to dealing with the Salt Vampire from the Man Trap or the Cloud monster from Obsession both of which were killed.

Also seeing as TOS seemed to treat M-class planets as not that common that kind of makes telling the Crystaline entity not to eat inhabited planets problematic because there aren't that many of them around.
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Old February 8 2014, 11:44 PM   #444
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Set Harth wrote: View Post
At this point there's really only one place left for the rearguard-action posse to go
I'm part of a posse?

Do we get badges? What's the pay? Why wasn't I told about this, I want my cheddar!
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Old February 9 2014, 01:52 AM   #445
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

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I'm part of a posse? What's the pay?
Whiskey for the men, beer for the horses.

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Old February 9 2014, 02:51 AM   #446
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Long as Connery's in, I'm in...

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Old February 9 2014, 04:18 AM   #447
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BigJake wrote: View Post
Long as Connery's in, I'm in...

Barbarella called, she wants her outfit back
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Old February 9 2014, 11:36 AM   #448
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Jeyl wrote: View Post
It wasn't the racial insensitivity of that scene that made me glad they cut it (Although it sure helped), but the fact that this scene is played at the expense of a character who was murdered just a few hours earlier.
Considering Gaila's reaction at her posting, I still have some hope she was assigned to Enterprise.

YARN wrote: View Post
Pine's depiction does not just reduce to type, but stereotype.
A stereotype of Kirk, in fact. I guess my only gripe about the character in the new movies is how he acts not like Kirk, but like Kirk's stereotype. I get the different childhood, but it still seems like this is what they were going for.
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Old February 10 2014, 05:47 AM   #449
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Belz... wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
It wasn't the racial insensitivity of that scene that made me glad they cut it (Although it sure helped), but the fact that this scene is played at the expense of a character who was murdered just a few hours earlier.
Considering Gaila's reaction at her posting, I still have some hope she was assigned to Enterprise.

YARN wrote: View Post
Pine's depiction does not just reduce to type, but stereotype.
A stereotype of Kirk, in fact. I guess my only gripe about the character in the new movies is how he acts not like Kirk, but like Kirk's stereotype. I get the different childhood, but it still seems like this is what they were going for.
yeah, that was pretty much the model for nuKirk in STXI-his image in pop culture rather than onscreen in Trek. They toned it down, fortunately in STID.
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Old February 14 2014, 05:29 PM   #450
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Busting Kirk's balls over this is nothing but a result of "TNG think". The character is human and carries himself in a very human manner.
As seen in the TNG episodes "Arena" and "Spectre of the Gun."
I prefer "The Conscience of the King", with Kirk trying to sort out justice and vengeance, giving some thought to it rather than being glib "you've got it!". Granted, nuKirk had less time to balance things out, but it would have gone a long way just to show a moment of him giving it a thought before ordering Nero's execution. Done in that manner, I would have totally been fine with him giving the order to destroy Nero's ship.

But all in all, I would have preferred Kirk just beam up the Narada crew and put them in the brig. He was prepared to do that anyway, and even if Nero refused help, it's not like he would have a chance to fight back with a crew of a thousand against him.
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