RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,522
Posts: 5,512,261
Members: 25,138
Currently online: 415
Newest member: Tosty82

TrekToday headlines

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 2 2014, 10:12 AM   #61
QuinnTV
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: New Orleans-Class

Maurice wrote: View Post
A "fleet" need not be all the ships a service has. "The fleet" Shelby refers to could be the UFP Fourth Fleet for all we know.
That's how I took her statement. Didn't DS9 mention different fleets during the Dominion War?
QuinnTV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 2 2014, 05:13 PM   #62
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: New Orleans-Class

Andrew Probert's original Ambassador-class concept is no more canon than the Phase II or Planet of the Titans Enterprise designs, or Doug Drexler's NX-01.5 refit.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 2 2014, 06:21 PM   #63
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: New Orleans-Class

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Andrew Probert's original Ambassador-class concept is no more canon than the Phase II or Planet of the Titans Enterprise designs, or Doug Drexler's NX-01.5 refit.
Well, the two Planet of the Titans study models were shown on screen as actual ships, so those ship designs are canon. However, what they were originally meant to represent (a refit TOS Enterprise) is no longer valid, just like that sculpture is no longer valid as anything more than some unknown, possibly even non-existent ship design.

Blip wrote: View Post
Completely incidental, but I'm really enjoying this thread!
Same; I love talkin' about starships!

Well, the easy answer as we all know, is "there was never a story need and budget sufficient to show them" I have no problem with the FC ships having been around in some form decades prior, any more than I do with the Apollo-class having been unseen (not to mention as a sister-class to Ambassador)... but I digress.
I guess the problem I have (sans a refit scenario like you posed) is that those designs are just so radically different than the other Galaxy-style ships that share similar registry numbers and possibly the same construction times. Plus as I said before, I'm not sure why Alex Jaeger etc. would have purposely designed ships that were meant to be older unless they were specifically told to do so. Looking at the concept art for FC, the ship designs I saw looked as if they were all supposed to be new. But I guess that's my supposition...

I shall bow to your wisdom then on that! I've simply grabbed some detail from the EAS website (admittedly some of Bernd's analyses are... flawed... but the factual detail is still good).
Keep in mind that the bulk of the research was done back in 2001, and has rarely been updated since. And also keep in mind that during that whole period, we literally had new info coming in every day, so it wasn't the easiest thing in the world to keep all the correct info straight. Now that I have the BoBW BluRay and have made screencaps of the VFX portion of the special features, I've found even more info about those ships.

I would be more than hesitant to use these cited exceptions (especially those which were merely production flubs) as the rule... I'm also not sure where you got that the Pegasus was constructed around the time of the Ent-D, though. It received an interphase cloak in 2358, but that doesn't suggest a commissioning date. (let's ignore the fact that an Oberth model was used to save time/money. I've read enough crap about that class of ship for one month!)
Pressman states that the ship was destroyed 12 years ago. Geordi wonders what the Romulans would want with a 12 year old ship. Since the ep took place in TNG's 7th season, that would mean that the Pegasus was built five years before the Enterprise-D (and the implication is that she was built and destroyed in the same year). And no one knew about the interphase cloak at the time other than Riker and Pressman. And all Pressman said was that the Pegasus was an experimental prototype utilizing new technology such as experimental engines, weapons and other tech that would be used in the Galaxy class (which makes using the Grissom model even more ridiculous).

The Tsiolkovsky's dedication plaque states that the ship was built a year before the Enterprise-D (Which means that, like the Pegasus, she was built and destroyed in the same year). I have a theory that Okuda made that plaque thinking that the VFX guys were going to build a new model for the science vessel, not reuse a movie model.

I realize that disconnects between the Art Department and the VFX personnel, and sloppy scriptwriting, aren't the most persuasive arguments in the world. I for one would be perfectly happy believing that both ships were far older than that. But I'm just going by what I saw in the show.

Quickfire responses:
1) Could be because all of the smaller and older ships were blown into teeny-tiny pieces... and thus went unseen. "Boom! Chunks of Starfleet, EVERYWHERE!!"
2) I've no problem with the Encyclopedia referring to Roosevelt as an Excelsior, since they're all over the place anyway!
3) Neither Ambassador, nor Excelsior, Miranda or Connie II are contemporaries to the Galaxy - even a new build of the same design wouldn't have the same rated capabilities IMO. I lean in the same direction for New Orleans.
4) At least one of those Nebulas is a "proto-Nebula" and thus could conceivably be a different class, but that's just splitting hairs - it's still of the same design family!
1. I'm not sure why the Borg would bother to completely destroy just the older ships and leave the newer ones relatively intact, or by that logic even know which ships are older and which are newer.

2. As I've probably made clear, I'm just basing my viewpoints on on-screen canon, not what someone printed in a book that could potentially (and in some cases already has) be contradicted with later onscreen canon.

3. I consider the Ambassador to be somewhat contemporaneous to the Galaxy (at least in design more than that movie ships), but I didn't say the others were. The opposite, in fact.

4. Since the Excelsior Melbourne supersedes the Nebula one, the former ship was still present at the battle; it's just now a random Nebula class (or it could be the Tolstoy now, for all we know )

You're correct, mea culpa. That's what I get for referring to one of Bernd's diagrams! Not to mention, he lists the Apollo class as being the POTT design. *shudder*
I think that classification came from his ASDB section on his website. I don't think he himself thinks that.

Connie contemporary then. I think my point on that still stands.
We don't see enough of either the saucer or the secondary hull on screen to legitimately say that they came from a Connie. But since the parts obviously did, I'll concede

It's just that it seems to fly in the face of your earlier stance on constructing new builds of old designs!
The Melbourne is a special case here. No other canon Excelsior has a registry number that high, so to justify it canonically, I'd have to say that it was the last Excelsior built, but hey, whatever

I hear you... See this is the other thing: If they were older, hurriedly refit designs with ablative armor slapped all over, I could maybe forgive how un-shapely they look. I unfortunately can't give the Ent-E the same leeway.... Good grief, that thing sucks space lemons.
I know I'm biased because there was so much work and love put into the Enterprise-D design, while I feel that these newer ships are just kinda soulless slapped=together products. But again, that's my supposition.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin

Last edited by Dukhat; February 3 2014 at 09:46 AM.
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 06:38 PM   #64
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: New Orleans-Class

Dukhat wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Andrew Probert's original Ambassador-class concept is no more canon than the Phase II or Planet of the Titans Enterprise designs, or Doug Drexler's NX-01.5 refit.
Well, the two Planet of the Titans study models were shown on screen as actual ships, so those ship designs are canon. However, what they were originally meant to represent (a refit TOS Enterprise) is no longer valid, just like that sculpture is no longer valid as anything more than some unknown, possibly even non-existent ship design.
Let me get this straight: A rejected and abandoned 3D model, that just got a few seconds of screentime because they needed to put "something" there, is canon, but an approved 3D model, deliberately put in plain view that got several minutes of screentime exposure in the first four TNG seasons isn't worthy of rationalization? Our interpretation of canon is, indeed, not compatible.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 08:00 PM   #65
B.J.
Rear Admiral
 
B.J.'s Avatar
 
Location: Huntsville, AL, USA
Re: New Orleans-Class

I view the wall display the same way I view models from places like this site. Nice to look at, but most aren't even close to being accurate.
__________________
B.J. --- bj-o23.deviantart.com
B.J. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 11:05 PM   #66
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: New Orleans-Class

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Let me get this straight: A rejected and abandoned 3D model, that just got a few seconds of screentime because they needed to put "something" there, is canon, but an approved 3D model, deliberately put in plain view that got several minutes of screentime exposure in the first four TNG seasons isn't worthy of rationalization? Our interpretation of canon is, indeed, not compatible.
First of all, Bob, let's put this into some perspective: The Planet of the Titans study models are canon ships because they were shown on screen as actual ships. There was a ship in the surplus depot in "Unification," and there was a ship in Spacedock in STIII. But as I said before, what those ships were originally meant to represent was no longer valid. No one is going to argue that those ships were actually a refit TOS Enterprise NCC-1701, just like no one (other than yourself) is going to argue that Probert's wall hanging was actually the Enterprise-C.

Conversely, the only thing about Probert's ship design that's canon is a piece of abstract sculpture on a wall. The ship itself was never shown on screen, just the sculpture. Saying it appeared on screen for four years doesn't negate the fact that it was just a piece of artwork. No one ever pointed to that piece of artwork and stated it was the Enterprise-C. There's no little card under each ship with a name or registry number. There wasn't even a tiny study model of Probert's design floating around in space somewhere that we could rationalize as an actual ship. Instead, we saw Sternbach's design as the actual ship for the Enterprise-C, and again as sister ships of the actual Ambassador class.

That's the difference, and there's no argument about interpretation of canon to be made here, other than your own personal bias.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin

Last edited by Dukhat; February 4 2014 at 11:58 PM.
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 6 2014, 11:53 PM   #67
The Mighty Monkey of Mim
Captain
 
Re: New Orleans-Class

The TNG wall model certainly IS the Enterprise-C. It's just a rough/poor/inaccurate/artistic/abstract representation of it, as are ALL of the models in that particular display.
__________________
Watch out, or I'll get you with my Andorian ice powers.
The Mighty Monkey of Mim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 7 2014, 07:00 AM   #68
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: New Orleans-Class

The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
The TNG wall model certainly IS the Enterprise-C. It's just a rough/poor/inaccurate/artistic/abstract representation of it, as are ALL of the models in that particular display.
LOL, some third-graders in the Enterprise-D's art class probably made it, and Picard felt obligated to hang it on the wall
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 7 2014, 10:28 PM   #69
Mark_Nguyen
Commodore
 
Mark_Nguyen's Avatar
 
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Re: New Orleans-Class

...Until the fifth season when they inexplicably swapped it for a generic science fictioney wall piece. IIRC they had rebuild the set for some reason (not because of sickbay - they already did that in S2) and decided to leave it out.

In any case I'm glad they AREN'T accurate models, otherwise everyone would've been ducking under the enormous saucer of the E-D sticking out of the wall for four years..!

Mark
__________________
Mark Nguyen - Producer
The 404s - Improv Comedy Group

Oh, I like that Trek thing too...
Mark_Nguyen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8 2014, 12:16 AM   #70
Herkimer Jitty
Rear Admiral
 
Herkimer Jitty's Avatar
 
Location: Dayglow, New California Republic
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Herkimer Jitty
Re: New Orleans-Class

Pretty sure the reason they had to rebuild the conference room was because it got partially blowed up filming STVI.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1965½, 1966-1969, Jan. 21-23 1972, 1979-2001, 2003-2005, 2009-?
Herkimer Jitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8 2014, 01:50 AM   #71
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: New Orleans-Class

The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
The TNG wall model certainly IS the Enterprise-C. It's just a rough/poor/inaccurate/artistic/abstract representation of it, as are ALL of the models in that particular display.



I'd agree on the "rough" and "artistic". Other than that the distincitive features are discernible enough to realize that the Enterprise-C is not the one that popped out from the temporal and/or interspatial anomaly in "Yesterday's Enterprise".

The accuracy of these sculptures may be debatable but the sculptor got the Enterprise-C to look rather exactly like the one on the side view Andrew Probert provided:



Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8 2014, 11:29 AM   #72
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: New Orleans-Class

In Keiko's classroom on DS9, and the Starfleet Academy recreation on Voyager, there is a graphic showing (non-impressionistic) plan views of the Enterprises. The -C is represented by the "Yesterday's Enterprise" Ambassador class model.


Like it or not, the -C model in early TNG was a placeholder (as was the -B)
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8 2014, 04:45 PM   #73
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: New Orleans-Class

I agree on the -C but why does the -B appear to lack the extensions on the rear of the saucer and look like a stock Excelsior?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
In Keiko's classroom on DS9, and the Starfleet Academy recreation on Voyager, there is a graphic showing (non-impressionistic) plan views of the Enterprises. The -C is represented by the "Yesterday's Enterprise" Ambassador class model.


Like it or not, the -C model in early TNG was a placeholder (as was the -B)
__________________
My WIPs: TOS (and TFS) Enterprise / TOS Era Ships
Random Data: Starship Cargo Volumes
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8 2014, 04:51 PM   #74
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: New Orleans-Class

Because the episode is from DS9's first season ("The Nagus") and pre-dates Generations.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8 2014, 05:20 PM   #75
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: New Orleans-Class

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Because the episode is from DS9's first season ("The Nagus") and pre-dates Generations.
And that's why they need quantum reality cops to stop mucking around with different alternate universes
__________________
My WIPs: TOS (and TFS) Enterprise / TOS Era Ships
Random Data: Starship Cargo Volumes
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:07 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.