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Old February 5 2014, 06:38 AM   #31
Venardhi
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Ughh, couldn't make it through the first hour.
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Old February 5 2014, 06:40 AM   #32
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

According to a poll on Christianity Today's website, the question "Who Won the Debate Tonight?" has:

Ken Ham 9%
Bill Nye 91%

Woohoo!
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Old February 5 2014, 06:41 AM   #33
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

J. Allen wrote: View Post
The risk there, though, is that when you go off message, you might dilute your point in the process.
I agree with you but I think Nye was making that point when he said about the billions that didn't agree with Ken Ham. It just was a clunky argument.

I also respect Nye for staying with the science but some theology would have hit Ham in the gut.

1. Genesis is full of inconsistency. Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 is the most famous. God created man and woman together in 1:1 and then created woman AFTER man in 1:2. Also God orders Noah to originally save 6 pairs of the sacred animals and then orders Noah to save a pair of every animal. Good Grief Lord which is it.

2. Ark means box that holds something sacred. It does not mean boat.

3. People lived HOW LONG back then. Let Ham explain that.

4. On the first day God created the Sea and the Sky. Uh how can you do that without creating a planet first.

5. If stars came at the same time why are they different ages.

6. Why does God hate DINOSAURS!!!

Etc. infinitum.
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Old February 5 2014, 06:47 AM   #34
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

True, and I would have loved to see him do it, but again, that's the kind of stuff that will get you mired down in the details. Bill seemed like he was trying to stay on top of the bilge that Ken Ham was flooding him with.
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Old February 5 2014, 06:58 AM   #35
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Well, I think the polytheist angle would leave the creationist having to make a completely different argument as to why monotheism is true and polytheism is not, completely changing their game because you can't even pretend to make that argument scientifically, so they'd be left spouting some stuff about Jesus or the Ten Commandments. I'm not sure the tactic would work, but it might be worth trying in some lesser forum.

The idea stems from a thought I had upon reading the Popul Vu, the Mayan creation story, which was actually much more scientifically accurate than Genesis, holding that the universe is made of a four-fold symmetry (built with strings), and that different physical forces were the result of different gods, and that mankind's direct ancestors are monkeys. It also better handles things like disease and horrible death, which some gods find very amusing, and it is scientifically testable because it holds that we each have a spirit animal living inside a known mountain in Mexico, which could be explored by mining or drilling if you don't get sued by a bunch of lawyers whose spirit animals are worms, spiders, and cockroaches that might be killed during the process.
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Old February 5 2014, 07:00 AM   #36
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

J. Allen wrote: View Post
True, and I would have loved to see him do it, but again, that's the kind of stuff that will get you mired down in the details.
I have to agree because that's what happened to Kevin Ham.

Bill seemed like he was trying to stay on top of the bilge that Ken Ham was flooding him with.
He did a great job but he seamed to lose focus. He missed too many opportunities to "score points" against Ham to make his lame appeal to promote STEMI. That's the one thing that really annoyed me about Nye. American scientific supremacy is ending soon and there is nothing to cry over.
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Old February 5 2014, 07:06 AM   #37
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

gturner wrote: View Post
Well, I think the polytheist angle would leave the creationist having to make a completely different argument as to why monotheism is true and polytheism is not, completely changing their game because you can't even pretend to make that argument scientifically, so they'd be left spouting some stuff about Jesus or the Ten Commandments. I'm not sure the tactic would work, but it might be worth trying in some lesser forum..
Well Ham did that anyway. I don't know if he did it to win points with his "base" (Christians) or a response to the fact that his arguments were so weak.
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Old February 5 2014, 07:23 AM   #38
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

He probably can't help but do it because he's an evangelical Christian who believes in the literal word of the Bible.

Another question is that if God really made the world and all we see, including the fossils, why was it man who had to write it all down? Couldn't have God made an HP Laserjet and printed a million copies of His holy word, and made flatscreen TV's for the Hebrews that would show how he did it all?

I'd also make attacks on the flood story, because that much water doesn't exist on Earth, that much water can't fall as rain, if there was that much rain in the air then the Earth's surface air pressure would be the same as the pressure 30,000 feet under the ocean, where a nuclear submarine would be crushed like an egg, and that it requires one to believe that all the animals in the Americas and Australia swam across the ocean to get on a boat so they wouldn't drown, just so they could swim back. In fact, it was the discovery of North and South America and their unique species that convinced the Catholic hierarchy that Noah's flood wasn't literally global, because thousands of land mammals swimming across the Atlantic and back didn't make a lick of sense.
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Old February 5 2014, 07:26 AM   #39
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Yminale wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
The risk there, though, is that when you go off message, you might dilute your point in the process.
I agree with you but I think Nye was making that point when he said about the billions that didn't agree with Ken Ham. It just was a clunky argument.

I also respect Nye for staying with the science but some theology would have hit Ham in the gut.

1. Genesis is full of inconsistency. Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 is the most famous. God created man and woman together in 1:1 and then created woman AFTER man in 1:2. Also God orders Noah to originally save 6 pairs of the sacred animals and then orders Noah to save a pair of every animal. Good Grief Lord which is it.

2. Ark means box that holds something sacred. It does not mean boat.

3. People lived HOW LONG back then. Let Ham explain that.

4. On the first day God created the Sea and the Sky. Uh how can you do that without creating a planet first.

5. If stars came at the same time why are they different ages.

6. Why does God hate DINOSAURS!!!

Etc. infinitum.
That's only a problem for Fundamentalist literalism not theology.
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Old February 5 2014, 08:05 AM   #40
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

gturner wrote: View Post
Another question is that if God really made the world and all we see, including the fossils, why was it man who had to write it all down? Couldn't have God made an HP Laserjet and printed a million copies of His holy word, and made flatscreen TV's for the Hebrews that would show how he did it all?
Good point. Another is who is the author? It certainly is not God neither can it be Moses (since Exodus and Leviticus are written in the third person). I think that's a better argument since Ham is obsessed with being "observable".

I'd also make attacks on the flood story, because that much water doesn't exist on Earth, that much water can't fall as rain,
According to the bible, deep wells under the Earth but there is no evidence of all that extra water.

In fact, it was the discovery of North and South America and their unique species that convinced the Catholic hierarchy that Noah's flood wasn't literally global, because thousands of land mammals swimming across the Atlantic and back didn't make a lick of sense.
Hence Pangea existed in the time of Noah. Of course the separation of the continents in such a short period would release so much energy, that the seas would boil and rocks would literally melt and all life would have perished.
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Old February 5 2014, 08:11 AM   #41
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
That's only a problem for Fundamentalist literalism not theology.
Ham is a literalist.
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Old February 5 2014, 08:14 AM   #42
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Well, again I think the more ad-hoc, moronically stupid explanations you can force them to make, the better, with each story dumber than the last. ^_^

"So you really think America sailed away from Israel or Turkey in just 40 days, faster than any sailing ship could make the journey? Wouldn't this have been such a huge event that nobody would've commented on the light storm showers going on?"
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Old February 5 2014, 08:15 AM   #43
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Which is probably why Bill didn't go for it. He had two audiences that night: the fundamentalist YECs, and the run of the mill Christians. He maintained a fair balance without appearing petty, unlike Ham, who decided to needle Bill whenever he could.
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Old February 5 2014, 08:23 AM   #44
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Yminale wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
That's only a problem for Fundamentalist literalism not theology.
Ham is a literalist.
Attacking the theology isn't necessary, that's playing on their turf. Attacking what their trying to do which is playing in the playground of science is much easier. Creationism, any religion really, doesn't hold up when trying to explain how the universe works. There's simply more to the whole shebang than the writers of religion can come up with, especially so if your trying literalism. Religion and philosophy are fine in their place-talking about the whys and purposes to life. Those questions are irrelevant to science and they make bad science when trying to apply science to answering them as it plays into the obscurantism of folks like Ham who want folks to think the sciences and creationism are simply different theories to explain the cosmos.
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Old February 5 2014, 08:26 AM   #45
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Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

gturner wrote: View Post
Well, again I think the more ad-hoc, moronically stupid explanations you can force them to make, the better, with each story dumber than the last. ^_^
All their arguments boil down to this "God did it"
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