RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,689
Posts: 5,430,748
Members: 24,826
Currently online: 534
Newest member: Old Man 51


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science and Technology

Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 4 2014, 08:44 PM   #1
DarthTom
Fleet Admiral
 
DarthTom's Avatar
 
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Piers Morgan - who I'm not crazy about is going to moderate - but this should be an interesting debate.

CNN

(CNN)
- Public debates on evolution and creation have become increasingly rare. Several hundred well-attended debates were held in the 1970s and 1980s, but they have largely dried up in recent decades.
So I look forward to a spirited yet cordial debate on Tuesday with Bill Nye, the "Science Guy" of television fame.
I also look forward to the opportunity to help counter the general censorship against creationists' view of origins. While we are not in favor of mandating that creation be taught in public school science classes, we believe that, at the very least, instructors should have the academic freedom to bring up the problems with evolution.
Even though the two of us are not Ph.D. scientists, Mr. Nye and I clearly love science.
As a former science instructor, I have appreciated the useful television programs that he hosted and produced, especially when he practiced operational science in front of his audience.
He and I both recognize the wonderful benefits that observational, operational science has brought us, from cell phones to space shuttles. But operational science, which builds today’s technology, is not the same as presenting beliefs about the past, which cannot be tested in the laboratory.
For students, the evolution-creation discussion can be a useful exercise, for it can help develop their critical thinking skills.
DarthTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 08:45 PM   #2
Robert Maxwell
Not Your Toy
 
Robert Maxwell's Avatar
 
Location: A broken roof
View Robert Maxwell's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Robert Maxwell Send a message via AIM to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Yahoo to Robert Maxwell
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

This is an awful idea. Putting a Creationist on the same stage as a legitimate scientist only makes Creationism look more credible. It gives the impression there's a "debate" with "two sides" who have valid points, when in reality it's facts against bullshit.

Creationists should be shunned, ridiculed, and shamed into silence, not engaged in debate.
__________________
It's all false love and affection
I has a blag.
Robert Maxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 09:01 PM   #3
DarthTom
Fleet Admiral
 
DarthTom's Avatar
 
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
This is an awful idea. Putting a Creationist on the same stage as a legitimate scientist only makes Creationism look more credible. It gives the impression there's a "debate" with "two sides" who have valid points, when in reality it's facts against bullshit.

Creationists should be shunned, ridiculed, and shamed into silence, not engaged in debate.
I don't know Robert Maxwell, while I generally agere with you when you start getting into, "intelligent design," and you throw in people's faith into the mix it becomes less black and white.

As an ex-Catholic myself, I was taught as child that God was the proverbial, "watchmaker," started the big bang and stood back and watched "his," plan unfold. So if we're talking about that type of, "creationism," it becomes IMO less of a debate over science v. religion and biblical pseudo science rather than science v. faith.

However, if we're talking about debating if Adam and Eve literally existed - than I agree 100% with you.

That said, this debate is occuring at the Creationism museum, so I'm guessing it's the latter not the former. I'm going to tune in and see how it unfolds for a few minutes tonight.
DarthTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 09:11 PM   #4
Robert Maxwell
Not Your Toy
 
Robert Maxwell's Avatar
 
Location: A broken roof
View Robert Maxwell's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Robert Maxwell Send a message via AIM to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Yahoo to Robert Maxwell
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
This is an awful idea. Putting a Creationist on the same stage as a legitimate scientist only makes Creationism look more credible. It gives the impression there's a "debate" with "two sides" who have valid points, when in reality it's facts against bullshit.

Creationists should be shunned, ridiculed, and shamed into silence, not engaged in debate.
I don't know Robert Maxwell, while I generally agere with you when you start getting into, "intelligent design," and you throw in people's faith into the mix it becomes less black and white.
It's less black and white and more apples and oranges. Religion and science are different domains.

As an ex-Catholic myself, I was taught as child that God was the proverbial, "watchmaker," started the big bang and stood back and watched "his," plan unfold. So if we're talking about that type of, "creationism," it becomes IMO less of a debate over science v. religion rather than science v. faith.
I don't think science and faith are necessarily incompatible, but there's also no reason they have to overlap. If religion has to creep in and tell science it's wrong, well, religion's overstepping.

However, if we're talking about debating if Adam and Eve literally existed - than I agree 100% with you.

That said, this debate is occuring at the Creationism museum, so I'm guessing it's the latter not the former. I'm going to tune in and see how it unfolds for a few minutes tonight.
Now there's a place I wouldn't mind seeing burn to the ground (with no one inside, of course.) Just one big shrine to anti-intellectualism and ignorance.
__________________
It's all false love and affection
I has a blag.
Robert Maxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 09:24 PM   #5
DarthTom
Fleet Admiral
 
DarthTom's Avatar
 
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I don't think science and faith are necessarily incompatible, but there's also no reason they have to overlap. If religion has to creep in and tell science it's wrong, well, religion's overstepping.
For Catholics at least - and since science cannot yet identify what 'force,' caused the big bang - their faith that God did is sufficient. Do you find the explanation objectionable?
DarthTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 09:27 PM   #6
Hound of UIster
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
This is an awful idea. Putting a Creationist on the same stage as a legitimate scientist only makes Creationism look more credible. It gives the impression there's a "debate" with "two sides" who have valid points, when in reality it's facts against bullshit.

Creationists should be shunned, ridiculed, and shamed into silence, not engaged in debate.
Agreed. Even acknowledging these people is a mistake and gives them credibility.
__________________
Lex Luthor is a true American hero.
Hound of UIster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 09:30 PM   #7
Robert Maxwell
Not Your Toy
 
Robert Maxwell's Avatar
 
Location: A broken roof
View Robert Maxwell's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Robert Maxwell Send a message via AIM to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Yahoo to Robert Maxwell
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I don't think science and faith are necessarily incompatible, but there's also no reason they have to overlap. If religion has to creep in and tell science it's wrong, well, religion's overstepping.
For Catholics at least - and since science cannot yet identify what 'force,' caused the big bang - their faith that God did is sufficient. Do you find the explanation objectionable?
I find it irrelevant. No deity or supernatural force of any kind is a requirement for the Big Bang to "work."
__________________
It's all false love and affection
I has a blag.
Robert Maxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 09:36 PM   #8
DarthTom
Fleet Admiral
 
DarthTom's Avatar
 
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I find it irrelevant. No deity or supernatural force of any kind is a requirement for the Big Bang to "work."
I generally agree. However, and to paraphrase the movie Contact, for people to dismiss more than 1/2 of the earth's population belief in a deity as some sort of delusional behavior is insulting.

I'll give them the fig leaf of the big bang being started by god if they accept the science of evolution and natural selection as a reasonable compromise.

Atheists get it wrong IMO when they because as dogmatic as some conservative religious people do with their beliefs or lack there of.
DarthTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 09:41 PM   #9
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

There is nothing wrong with teaching creationism per se, people are free to believe what they want, not that I believe it in myself. That being said creationism, Intelligent Design etc.. only belong in religious classes. They should not be taught in science class along with evolution.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 09:46 PM   #10
DarthTom
Fleet Admiral
 
DarthTom's Avatar
 
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

MacLeod wrote: View Post
There is nothing wrong with teaching creationism per se, people are free to believe what they want, not that I believe it in myself. That being said creationism, Intelligent Design etc.. only belong in religious classes. They should not be taught in science class along with evolution.
Children - especially young children - sometimes have trouble differentiating the difference.

The bible should not be taught IMO as a science book under any circumstances. As a Catholic for example I was taught as a child that virtually all of the old testament was apocryphal
DarthTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 09:46 PM   #11
Robert Maxwell
Not Your Toy
 
Robert Maxwell's Avatar
 
Location: A broken roof
View Robert Maxwell's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Robert Maxwell Send a message via AIM to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Yahoo to Robert Maxwell
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I find it irrelevant. No deity or supernatural force of any kind is a requirement for the Big Bang to "work."
I generally agree. However, and to paraphrase the movie Contact, for people to dismiss more than 1/2 of the earth's population belief in a deity as some sort of delusional behavior is insulting.
All I can say to that is "tough shit." Science is about facts, not feelings.

I'll give them the fig leaf of the big bang being started by god if they accept the science of evolution and natural selection as a reasonable compromise.
This is not a tit-for-tat. Science doesn't have to acknowledge unscientific assertions just to placate people. Evolution is true whether people "accept" it or not.

Atheists get it wrong IMO when they because as dogmatic as some conservative religious people do with their beliefs or lack there of.
I find your attitude bizarre. Science isn't "dogmatic," it's a process through which we refine our understanding of the universe. It's not perfect. It probably never will be. But it provides testable, provable information about the world around us. Religion is about offering hope and solace (at best) or enforcing social order (at worst.)

Certain religious groups are intent on demeaning and attacking science because they believe it threatens their doctrine. It's been the same old story for centuries, and science always wins out in the end, because science is about finding the truth, not hiding truths we may find uncomfortable or strange.
__________________
It's all false love and affection
I has a blag.
Robert Maxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 09:56 PM   #12
DarthTom
Fleet Admiral
 
DarthTom's Avatar
 
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I find your attitude bizarre. Science isn't "dogmatic," it's a process through which we refine our understanding of the universe. It's not perfect. It probably never will be. But it provides testable, provable information about the world around us. Religion is about offering hope and solace (at best) or enforcing social order (at worst.)
I wasn't talking about science being dogmatic but rather some atheists when it comes to pushing their anti-god agenda with science.

Science will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of god so - giving people their belief that god started the big bang IMO is a harmless concession. edited to add. And when I use the word, "concession," I mean it in a way that politely acknowledges that you respect their faith and so long as god doesn't break scientific law by starting the big bang you're fine with that even thought that may not be your personal belief system.

Certain religious groups are intent on demeaning and attacking science because they believe it threatens their doctrine. It's been the same old story for centuries, and science always wins out in the end, because science is about finding the truth, not hiding truths we may find uncomfortable or strange.
I agree with you - science is science and faith is faith but letting some people have both but yet still adhere to proven scientific principles is a reasonable way to compromise on the issue of creationism, "intelligent design," and the big bang and god as the watchmaker.
DarthTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 10:04 PM   #13
Robert Maxwell
Not Your Toy
 
Robert Maxwell's Avatar
 
Location: A broken roof
View Robert Maxwell's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Robert Maxwell Send a message via AIM to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Yahoo to Robert Maxwell
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I find your attitude bizarre. Science isn't "dogmatic," it's a process through which we refine our understanding of the universe. It's not perfect. It probably never will be. But it provides testable, provable information about the world around us. Religion is about offering hope and solace (at best) or enforcing social order (at worst.)
I wasn't talking about science being dogmatic but rather some atheists when it comes to pushing their anti-god agenda with science.

Science will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of god so - giving people their belief that god started the big bang IMO is a harmless concession.
If science can't prove or disprove the existence of deities--and short of one actually announcing itself, I would agree--why does religion give a damn? Science is never going to say "sure, the Big Bang was caused by God," because it's not a scientific statement. What are you asking for, for that to be put in science books or something?

Certain religious groups are intent on demeaning and attacking science because they believe it threatens their doctrine. It's been the same old story for centuries, and science always wins out in the end, because science is about finding the truth, not hiding truths we may find uncomfortable or strange.
I agree with you - science is science and faith is faith but letting some people have both but yet still adhere to proven scientific principles is a reasonable way to compromise on the issue of creationism, "intelligent design," and the big bang and god as the watchmaker.
If one's religion doesn't require a rejection of science, more power to it. Science really has no reason to care, though.
__________________
It's all false love and affection
I has a blag.
Robert Maxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 10:05 PM   #14
Timelord Victorious
TARDIS Janitor
 
Timelord Victorious's Avatar
 
Location: Germany, Earth, the Solar System
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I find your attitude bizarre. Science isn't "dogmatic," it's a process through which we refine our understanding of the universe. It's not perfect. It probably never will be. But it provides testable, provable information about the world around us. Religion is about offering hope and solace (at best) or enforcing social order (at worst.)
I wasn't talking about science being dogmatic but rather some atheists when it comes to pushing their anti-god agenda with science.

Science will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of god so - giving people their belief that god started the big bang IMO is a harmless concession.

Certain religious groups are intent on demeaning and attacking science because they believe it threatens their doctrine. It's been the same old story for centuries, and science always wins out in the end, because science is about finding the truth, not hiding truths we may find uncomfortable or strange.
I agree with you - science is science and faith is faith but letting some people have both but yet still adhere to proven scientific principles is a reasonable way to compromise on the issue of creationism, "intelligent design," and the big bang and god as the watchmaker.
It is ok to believe a god started the Big Bang and science can't disprove the untestable.
Until science finds out what started the Big Bang. Then which gaps fill the theists next with their god?
This has happened over and over throughout history. And always they have said, but scientists will never explain X, only god could have done that. And then science explained X. And theists burned the scientists with fire (maybe sometimes literally)literally) until they had to change their position because the world threatened to move on without them.
It will happen again...
Timelord Victorious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 10:53 PM   #15
DarthTom
Fleet Admiral
 
DarthTom's Avatar
 
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN

Timelord_Victorious wrote: View Post
It is ok to believe a god started the Big Bang and science can't disprove the untestable.
Until science finds out what started the Big Bang. Then which gaps fill the theists next with their god?
This has happened over and over throughout history. And always they have said, but scientists will never explain X, only god could have done that. And then science explained X. And theists burned the scientists with fire (maybe sometimes literally)literally) until they had to change their position because the world threatened to move on without them.
It will happen again...
That debate would become an endless loop. Hypothetically science finds out what triggered the big bang and the faithful will simply claim that god created that trigger. And so on ad nausea.

I say give them this so long as their beliefs don't contradict estabished and proven science.
DarthTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:39 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.