RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,116
Posts: 5,400,770
Members: 24,744
Currently online: 447
Newest member: Ohwowmelody

TrekToday headlines

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Retro Watches
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

New DS9 eBook To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Trek Ice Cube Maker and Shot Glasses
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 1 2014, 07:38 PM   #16
FKnight
Commander
 
FKnight's Avatar
 
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

T'Girl wrote: View Post
If tyhe Enterprise had changed course, the Boseman would have emerge, hit nothing, and found themselves in the future.

The Boseman "looped" exactly as many times as the Enterprise did. When the Enterprise exploded and reset (how many hours?) the Boseman still being in the area of the explosion also reset the same time period.
This is pretty much exactly what I got out of this episode. The Bozeman was flying around in 2278 then flew into a temporal anomaly leading them 90 years into the future. They collided with the Enterprise and the resulting warp core explosion interacted with the temporal distortion in some way as to create a temporal loop of some arbitrary length, resetting both ships back a few hours in their respective timeframes. Bozeman wasn't trapped in the loop for 90 years, they were trapped for the same amount of subjective time as the Enterprise. They just happened to travel 90 years into the future during the loop.

The Enterprise seems to be a lightning rod for Starfleet ships falling out of temporal anomalies from the past.
__________________
"You have been examined. Your ship must be destroyed. We make assumption you have a deity, or deities, or some such beliefs which comfort you. We therefore grant you ten Earth time periods known as minutes to make preparations."
FKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1 2014, 08:51 PM   #17
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
combined with the tractor beam
The thing is the tractor beam was not used
You are correct sir, the tractor beam wasn't used in the successful avoidance of the Boseman, my mistake.

And there's not enough air in the main shuttle bay to move the mass of the Enterprise out of the way and certainly not in any meaningful rate to push the ship out of the way in time.
Given the dimensions of the main shuttle bay door and assuming that there is sea level pressure in the flight deck, initially there would be over six thousand tonnes of force.

Newton's third law of motion. The Enterprise is expelling matter aft, generating propulsion force forward.

The bottom of the Boseman's starboard warp nacelle raked the top of the Enterprise's starboard nacelle, the Enterprise would not have had to of moved very far to avoid the collision.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1 2014, 09:42 PM   #18
Trekker4747
Fleet Admiral
 
Trekker4747's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

T'Girl wrote: View Post
And there's not enough air in the main shuttle bay to move the mass of the Enterprise out of the way and certainly not in any meaningful rate to push the ship out of the way in time.
Given the dimensions of the main shuttle bay door and assuming that there is sea level pressure in the flight deck, initially there would be over six thousand tonnes of force.

Newton's third law of motion. The Enterprise is expelling matter aft, generating propulsion force forward.
Six Thousand tonnes of force being expelled pretty much instantly isn't going to be nearly enough to move the Enterprise at any meaningful rate. Yes there's going to be "some" counter force under Newton's Third law, but under the same principle doing a jump technically pushes the earth slightly downward; even though it weighs around 6 septillion kilograms and I weigh around 100.

The mass of the air in the shuttlebay may be 6,000 tonnes but the mass of the Enterprise is around 4.5 million tonnes.

The air in the shuttlebay is going to be expelled pretty much instantly when the doors are opened, so that's 6,000 tonnes of force all at once in a single instant. That's not going to be enough to move something 750 times as massive in any meaningful way.
__________________
Out of hope.

Last edited by Trekker4747; February 2 2014 at 02:57 AM.
Trekker4747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1 2014, 10:22 PM   #19
E-DUB
Captain
 
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

Not weighing in on the question at hand but just to say that this was the best opening sequence of any TNG episode, maybe any Trek period.

And while we're talking time loops, anybody ever see a movie called "Triangle"?
E-DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 2 2014, 01:10 AM   #20
Green Shirt
Commodore
 
Green Shirt's Avatar
 
Location: 21133
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

FKnight wrote: View Post
The Enterprise seems to be a lightning rod for Starfleet ships falling out of temporal anomalies from the past.
The various Enterprises were lightning rods for every kind of trouble that came up, since she was always the "only ship in the quadrant".
__________________
Its not easy being green.
Green Shirt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 01:02 AM   #21
Turd Ferguson
Commodore
 
Turd Ferguson's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

I watched this recently and wondered what any monitoring Starfleet outposts must have thought about the situation. How far out did the causality loop expand? Did it end around the vicinity of the Enterprise after it was thrown back? We know that time continued on outside of the loop, hence the sixteen/seventeen days that were lost.

Shouldn't Admiral Necheyev have sent Picard a jingle to tell him to quit stalling and get to his next assignment?

Edit: Surely the combined matter/antimatter explosions of the Enterprise and Bozeman colliding should have alerted Starfleet sensors that something was amiss. Especially FOUR matter/antimatter explosions in the same area of space in under three weeks.
__________________
"Divine intervention is unlikely." - The Doctor
Turd Ferguson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 01:46 AM   #22
USS Triumphant
Rear Admiral
 
USS Triumphant's Avatar
 
Location: Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

"Well, I'M just glad we've decided that my progenitor wasn't an idiot for 90 years!" - my profile pic, holographic ship computer avatar and second officer of U.S.S. Triumphant, Lt. Cmdr Richard Bateson

__________________
As the brilliant philosopher once said... Everybody, have fun tonight. Everybody, Wang Chung tonight.
USS Triumphant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 03:44 AM   #23
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
The air in the shuttlebay is going to be expelled pretty much instantly
We've never seen the entire main shuttle bay of course, but if we were to go by some of the blueprints released through the years and the known size of the door, it would take several seconds to vent the atmosphere.

The mass of the air in the shuttlebay may be 6,000 tonnes but the mass of the Enterprise is around 4.5 million tonnes.
Yet the Enterprise does move sufficiently far to avoid the collision, with the shuttle bay's atmosphere as the only propulsion.

So consider, part of the impulse drive includes "space-time driver coils" that reduces the Enteprise's mass, thus making it possible for the impulse engine's thrust to move the ship. Now from dialog the impulse engine were not producing thrust (neither were the maneuvering thrusters) , but if the driver coils themselves were still in operation, this would enable the thrust from the shuttle deck's open doors to move the Enterprise.

Again, the Enterprise does move.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 03:46 AM   #24
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

FKnight wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
If tyhe Enterprise had changed course, the Boseman would have emerge, hit nothing, and found themselves in the future.

The Boseman "looped" exactly as many times as the Enterprise did. When the Enterprise exploded and reset (how many hours?) the Boseman still being in the area of the explosion also reset the same time period.
This is pretty much exactly what I got out of this episode. The Bozeman was flying around in 2278 then flew into a temporal anomaly leading them 90 years into the future. They collided with the Enterprise and the resulting warp core explosion interacted with the temporal distortion in some way as to create a temporal loop of some arbitrary length, resetting both ships back a few hours in their respective timeframes. Bozeman wasn't trapped in the loop for 90 years, they were trapped for the same amount of subjective time as the Enterprise. They just happened to travel 90 years into the future during the loop.
That is what I always thought as well.

Also, remember that the Bozeman crew (what little we saw of them) didn't show any signs of deja vu or uneasiness like the Ent-D crew did. Captain Bateson had absolutely no idea that there had ever been a time warp.
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 10:39 AM   #25
Trekker4747
Fleet Admiral
 
Trekker4747's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The mass of the air in the shuttlebay may be 6,000 tonnes but the mass of the Enterprise is around 4.5 million tonnes.
Yet the Enterprise does move sufficiently far to avoid the collision, with the shuttle bay's atmosphere as the only propulsion.

So consider, part of the impulse drive includes "space-time driver coils" that reduces the Enteprise's mass, thus making it possible for the impulse engine's thrust to move the ship. Now from dialog the impulse engine were not producing thrust (neither were the maneuvering thrusters) , but if the driver coils themselves were still in operation, this would enable the thrust from the shuttle deck's open doors to move the Enterprise.

Again, the Enterprise does move.

But, that's giving them the credit of the mass-reducing coils operating. If they're not there's not enough mass being expelled from the shuttlebay to move the mass of the ship. Equal and opposite reaction. 6,000 tonnes is not equal to 4.5 million tonnes.

The air in the shuttlebay can only move 6,000 tonnes, its own mass. It might slightly ever nudge the ship a teeny, tiny, iota of a bit. But certainly not to move as much, or as quickly, as we see it move in the episode.
__________________
Out of hope.
Trekker4747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 10:52 AM   #26
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

Welcome to the comic book world of Star Trek physics.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 04:51 PM   #27
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

FKnight wrote: View Post
The Enterprise seems to be a lightning rod for Starfleet ships falling out of temporal anomalies from the past.
Probably some cosmic side effect each time Q thinks of the Enterprise-D and Captain Picard.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 05:42 PM   #28
Cyke101
Rear Admiral
 
Cyke101's Avatar
 
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

I just thought it was only the E-D that was caught in the loop, and that the Bozemen essentially entered a portal or wormhole that was a single straight-shot to the 24th century. After all, the normal humans of the E-D figured out that they were in the loop, but were slowly suspecting that they might be going a bit crazy in the process (deja vu and the confusion that comes with it), and that was only 16 days. If the Bozeman was in a loop for 100 years, they would've been extremely frustrated to the point of insanity by the time they escaped, assuming they could detect residual memories the way our heroes did, which could culminate into what Bill Murray experienced in the middle of Groundhog Day before accepting his fate.

However, judging by how calm and collected everyone on the Bozeman was, I doubt that they went through hell.

(On the plus side for the E-D crew, if they die of old age, it'll probably be 16 days later than they were supposed to. Barring further time travel incidents, of course.)
__________________
“You do not use science in order to prove yourself right, you use science in order to become right.”
Cyke101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 07:35 PM   #29
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
The air in the shuttlebay can only move 6,000 tonnes, its own mass. It might slightly ever nudge the ship a teeny, tiny, iota of a bit. But certainly not to move as much, or as quickly, as we see it move in the episode.
You are aware that the maneuvering thrusters can also move the ship, or are you of the position that they generate four and a half million tons of thrust?

The facts of the episode is that solely through venting the main shuttle bay the Enterprise moved far enough in the given time availible to avoid the collision.

And in a zero gee environmet you actually don't need one to one thrust to move something.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4 2014, 09:49 PM   #30
Trekker4747
Fleet Admiral
 
Trekker4747's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: Cause and Effect (??)

T'Girl wrote: View Post
You are aware that the maneuvering thrusters can also move the ship, or are you of the position that they generate four and a half million tons of thrust?
We don't know enough about how the thrusters or really how anything on the ship works. Presumably the thrusters are powered by the same fusion reactors the impulse engines are and aren't chemical rockets. It's also likely the thrusters are also aided by any mass-reducing technomagic on the ship.


The facts of the episode is that solely through venting the main shuttle bay the Enterprise moved far enough in the given time availible to avoid the collision.
And the facts of the entire series is that the ship can at it's best can move 2000 times the speed of light and converting matter to pure energy is done without much thought. What's your point?

In the episode the ship had a major ship-wide power failure and the engines and thrusters were not available to them. Apparently they had only, at the minimum, two options available to them. Decompress the shuttlebay or use the tractor beam.

And in a zero gee environmet you actually don't need one to one thrust to move something.
Mass and Zero-G have nothing to do with one another. Objects in space still have mass and it still takes mass/energy to move that mass and to do it you need an equal or greater force. Saying "you don't need one-to-one" thrust to move something is like saying that if the ISS stops moving an astronaut can just get out and push. And not really "push" but just get out and give the ISS a single, quick, instant tap with the slightest of effort and the ISS will go flying away from him.

And even if you don't need a 1-1 ratio I'm pretty sure a 1-750 ratio is giving them too much.
__________________
Out of hope.
Trekker4747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:05 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.