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Old January 28 2014, 01:05 PM   #31
Blip
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Re: New Orleans-Class

The only problem with that being she didn't look old, hence the idea that there may have been an extensive Oberth refit ala TMP.
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Old January 28 2014, 03:24 PM   #32
Robert Comsol
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Re: New Orleans-Class

You mean Grissom didn't look old because ILM didn't "dirty" her or that she didn't look old because she had this iPod / Apple white coating (this would be some retroactive reasoning, because such white Apple products did not yet exist back in 1983)?

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Old January 28 2014, 09:46 PM   #33
Mark_Nguyen
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Agreed, "looking" old is completely subjective, since some people think NX-01 looks more advanced than NCC-1701; similarly I think the Excelsior looks more advanced than the Ambassador, but I'm perfectly happy thinking it's an older ship. Everyone's mileage varies.

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Old January 29 2014, 06:17 PM   #34
Blip
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
You mean Grissom didn't look old because ILM didn't "dirty" her or that she didn't look old because she had this iPod / Apple white coating (this would be some retroactive reasoning, because such white Apple products did not yet exist back in 1983)?

Bob
Um, you seem a little upset about this? I can't see why, but nonetheless my reasoning has nothing to do with any of the above. I say she doesn't look "old" because she shares more design cues with the Excelsior (and to a lesser extent, the Enterprise) than with any examples that we've seen from TOS or prior, while if we were to go with the linear-registry mode of thought her number argues that she be an older vessel. Hence, a heavy refit is perfectly plausible. YMMV, but that's my take on it, and I'm sticking with it.

Mark Nguyen wrote:
Agreed, "looking" old is completely subjective, since some people think NX-01 looks more advanced than NCC-1701; similarly I think the Excelsior looks more advanced than the Ambassador, but I'm perfectly happy thinking it's an older ship. Everyone's mileage varies.
Well to be fair we do know the Ent-C as seen on screen was the result of TV budget constraints and a necessarily rapid construction by the model team. If Probert's original concept had been adhered to she'd have looked substantially more advanced (though for some reason I still prefer the uprated Ambassador types we saw, such as the Zhukov).

As for the NX-01, honestly the less said about that the better.
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Old January 29 2014, 11:44 PM   #35
Robert Comsol
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Blip wrote: View Post
Um, you seem a little upset about this?
No, I was just curious to learn your reasoning which you now provided.

Bob
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Old January 30 2014, 12:13 AM   #36
Dukhat
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Re: New Orleans-Class

STIII always gave me the impression that the Grissom, like the Excelsior, was a new ship, or at least newer than the TOS Constitution class, despite the low registry number. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread and elsewhere, I don't think ILM based their decision about the numbers on any more logic than the size of the ships. I'm not sure why ILM would have ever built a ship that was supposed to be intentionally older than the TOS Enterprise regardless of what it looked like, unless there was a specific reason or script reference to do so.

Plus, the fact that the Grissom shares design attributes with several of the Excelsior concept study models lends all kinds of credence that she's supposed to be the Excelsior's contemporary.
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Old January 30 2014, 12:39 AM   #37
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Blip wrote: View Post
Well to be fair we do know the Ent-C as seen on screen was the result of TV budget constraints and a necessarily rapid construction by the model team. If Probert's original concept had been adhered to she'd have looked substantially more advanced (though for some reason I still prefer the uprated Ambassador types we saw, such as the Zhukov).
I have always preferred the canon design of the Ambassador-Class (my favourite "capital ship" of Starfleet, I find it far better looking than the Galaxy- or Sovereign-Class).
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Old January 30 2014, 02:40 PM   #38
Robert Comsol
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
I have always preferred the canon design of the Ambassador-Class.
Now, which "canon design" would that be?

Locating some TNG screencaps for TNG discussions I hadn't thought that there would be that many conference lounge screencaps with Andrew Probert's golden Enterprise-C clearly visible behind the actors.

So I'd dare to say that Probert's Enterprise-C got much more screentime during TNG than the VFX model presented in "Yesterday's Enterprise".

Bob
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Old January 30 2014, 08:45 PM   #39
Dukhat
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Now, which "canon design" would that be?

Locating some TNG screencaps for TNG discussions I hadn't thought that there would be that many conference lounge screencaps with Andrew Probert's golden Enterprise-C clearly visible behind the actors.

So I'd dare to say that Probert's Enterprise-C got much more screentime during TNG than the VFX model presented in "Yesterday's Enterprise".
Oh, not this again...

The Sternbach-designed, Greg Jein-built Ambassador class model is the canon design for the class. It will always be the canon design for the class. With apologies to Andy Probert, whose work I love and whose original Ent-C design I love too, his version is not canon. An ill-defined sculpture on a wall with other ill-defined ships does not a canon design make, regardless of how much we saw it on screen. We saw Picard's desktop model of the Stargazer all seven seasons, but only saw the actual ship once. The model's registry is NCC-7100, while the Stargazer filming model's registry is NCC-2893. Are we supposed to disregard the registry on the actual filming model because we saw the desktop model more? I don't think so.
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Old January 30 2014, 10:44 PM   #40
Robert Comsol
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Dukhat wrote: View Post
The Sternbach-designed, Greg Jein-built Ambassador class model is the canon design for the class.
Probert's Enterprise-C was the canon design for the Ambassador Class until the VFX model came along.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
It will always be the canon design for the class.
Well, I'd say it changed our idea what a vessel of the Ambassador Class would look like.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
With apologies to Andy Probert, whose work I love and whose original Ent-C design I love too, his version is not canon.
His design for the Enterprise-C is canon in the "real" TNG universe. The other one we saw was the Enterprise-C in an alternate reality universe!
It's possible that an Ambassador Class ship became the Enterprise-C in the alternate universe. So instead of insisting we are looking at a canon contradiction, the Probert Enterprise-C in the real TNG universe may have belonged to a different class and the only erroneous part about it is assuming it's a member of the Ambassador Class.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
An ill-defined sculpture on a wall with other ill-defined ships does not a canon design make, regardless of how much we saw it on screen.
The sculptures are rather well defined as we can distinct the TOS Enterprise from the Enterprise-A. And they are defined enough to realize that the Enterprise-C on the wall and the one that showed up in "Yesterday's Enterprise" are not the same type of ship.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
We saw Picard's desktop model of the Stargazer all seven seasons, but only saw the actual ship once. The model's registry is NCC-7100, while the Stargazer filming model's registry is NCC-2893. Are we supposed to disregard the registry on the actual filming model because we saw the desktop model more? I don't think so.
Well, I'd first need to see a scene from TNG where the desktop model's registry was really readable.

Bob
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Old January 31 2014, 03:19 AM   #41
QuinnTV
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
The Sternbach-designed, Greg Jein-built Ambassador class model is the canon design for the class.
Probert's Enterprise-C was the canon design for the Ambassador Class until the VFX model came along.
No. It was artwork on a wall. Are you claiming the same for the B?

The other one we saw was the Enterprise-C in an alternate reality universe!
That was the "prime" universe C. Its entry through the fissure triggered the alternate reality, into which it promptly it found itself. If the C was alternate reality version the whole time, it could not have re-entered the prime universe and led to Sela, etc.
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Old January 31 2014, 04:29 AM   #42
yenny
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Now, which "canon design" would that be?

Locating some TNG screencaps for TNG discussions I hadn't thought that there would be that many conference lounge screencaps with Andrew Probert's golden Enterprise-C clearly visible behind the actors.

So I'd dare to say that Probert's Enterprise-C got much more screentime during TNG than the VFX model presented in "Yesterday's Enterprise".
Oh, not this again...

The Sternbach-designed, Greg Jein-built Ambassador class model is the canon design for the class. It will always be the canon design for the class. With apologies to Andy Probert, whose work I love and whose original Ent-C design I love too, his version is not canon. An ill-defined sculpture on a wall with other ill-defined ships does not a canon design make, regardless of how much we saw it on screen. We saw Picard's desktop model of the Stargazer all seven seasons, but only saw the actual ship once. The model's registry is NCC-7100, while the Stargazer filming model's registry is NCC-2893. Are we supposed to disregard the registry on the actual filming model because we saw the desktop model more? I don't think so.
No, otherwise the USS. Stargazer would had been a Constitution class starship instead of a Constellation.

The Enterprise-C isn't the only Ambassador we had seen. We saw the USS. Zhukov, I think it was Data's Day when we saw the Zhukov. The Yamaguchi in the Emissary and the Exeter in the DS9 Tears of The Prophet. I think she was behind the Defiant when they started firing at the weapons platforms?
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Old January 31 2014, 01:39 PM   #43
Robert Comsol
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Re: New Orleans-Class

QuinnTV wrote: View Post
It was artwork on a wall. Are you claiming the same for the B?
What about the Enterprise-B? In ST VII we saw the B with the added-on bumpers. Was it the first ship to feature these and what was the function of these bumpers? During events in ST VII a considerable part of the bumpers were destroyed.

Did they reconstruct these or did Starfleet get new information in the meantime that these bumpers weren't such a great thing (notice that most of the Excelsior Class Starships in the 24th Century do not have these bumpers "any more"). Maybe Starfleet decided to retro-convert the B into a standard Excelsior Class Starship? For whatever reason what we see on the conference lounge wall may just be the B in her final appearance. We simply don't have enough information (or imagination) to label the sculpture of the Enterprise-B as wrong or flawed.

QuinnTV wrote: View Post
That was the "prime" universe C. Its entry through the fissure triggered the alternate reality, into which it promptly it found itself. If the C was alternate reality version the whole time, it could not have re-entered the prime universe and led to Sela, etc.
That's just a conjectural assumption. "Previously" on TNG Guinan had stabbed Q's hand. And 'coincidentally' Guinan was the only one in the alternate timeline noticing something was wrong.
For all we know the whole situation could have been Q's revenge for what she did to him in "Deja Q", as Guinan is the one being put into the uncomfortable position to figure things out and persuade Captain Picard of the alternate timeline to send this Enterprise-C back in time.

Unless we have irrefutable onscreen evidence that in the "real" TNG universe the Enterprise-C did look like the one in the alternate timeline (e.g. dialogue, cross-section monitor display or the like), there is no reason not to assume that the "real" Enterprise-C looked like the one on the conference lounge's wall sculpture display.

The only thing that doesn't work, apparently, is to assume that the Enterprise-C in the "real" universe belonged to the Ambassador Class, too.

Bob
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Old January 31 2014, 02:54 PM   #44
Blip
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Probert's Enterprise-C was the canon design for the Ambassador Class until the VFX model came along.
A minor point here, but if memory serves, the class wasnt even named until the events of YE.

Well, I'd say it changed our idea what a vessel of the Ambassador Class would look like.
If we go by that model wall, then all of the different iterations of the Enterprise were somewhat out of proportion and lacking in detail than their real-life counterparts - would you treat that as gospel too? Regardless, the studio filming miniature is the vessel that was shown consistently portraying starships referred to as Ambassador-class, not simply some set-dressing background model.

His design for the Enterprise-C is canon in the "real" TNG universe. The other one we saw was the Enterprise-C in an alternate reality universe!
No.As has been pointed out already, the Enterprise-C from the primary timeline entered the rift, after which it emerged into the alternate future created by its own disappearance.

It's possible that an Ambassador Class ship became the Enterprise-C in the alternate universe.
See above.

The sculptures are rather well defined as we can distinct the TOS Enterprise from the Enterprise-A. And they are defined enough to realize that the Enterprise-C on the wall and the one that showed up in "Yesterday's Enterprise" are not the same type of ship.
A point of view which ignores other flubs, such as the Ent-B depicted incorrectly as a vanilla Excelsior build. The simple fact is that the model wall, as with any other set decoration, was only legitimate until corrected onscreen by the real vessel designs.


Anyhew, going back to the New Orleans.... (sort of)

Dukhat just because refits weren't obviously portrayed in repeated movies or episodes as being de rigeur for ships in the fleet, doesn't mean they didn't happen. For example, I'd suspect that the Reliant and her sisters of similar low registries were at least partial refits (bearing in mind 1701 was commissioned in the 2240s).

It could simply be that the older designs still in service by TNG didn't need any refitting (beyond what could be accomplished by interior systems' upgrades) as they were no longer serving as frontline ships.

For later-registry vessels however, they may have reached the point in their life-cycle where a major refit had been scheduled (or perhaps more likely warranted as part of the fleet improvements post Wolf 359?)
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Old January 31 2014, 09:35 PM   #45
Dukhat
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Probert's Enterprise-C was the canon design for the Ambassador Class until the VFX model came along.
Not according to canon. That wall sculpture was never referred to in dialogue or otherwise in the show as the design for the Enterprise-C or the Ambassador class. I know what the intention was, but the fact is it was never actually referred to that on screen. No one ever stated that those ships represented all the older Enterprises. They could just as easily have been random Starfleet vessels.

His design for the Enterprise-C is canon in the "real" TNG universe. The other one we saw was the Enterprise-C in an alternate reality universe!
No. As has already been stated, the Ent-C was from the regular universe and the future only changed to an alternate universe after it entered the rift.

So instead of insisting we are looking at a canon contradiction, the Probert Enterprise-C in the real TNG universe may have belonged to a different class and the only erroneous part about it is assuming it's a member of the Ambassador Class.
I have no problem rationalizing that the design is a different class of ship. Just not the Ambassador class.

The sculptures are rather well defined as we can distinct the TOS Enterprise from the Enterprise-A. And they are defined enough to realize that the Enterprise-C on the wall and the one that showed up in "Yesterday's Enterprise" are not the same type of ship.
As has also been stated before, the sculpture of the Enterprise-B and the actual Enterprise-B are not the same ship either. So the "proof" of the "Enterprise history wall" becomes even more dubious.

Well, I'd first need to see a scene from TNG where the desktop model's registry was really readable.
But according to your logic, that wouldn't matter. The model existed. It was meant to represent the Stargazer. It was seen for all seven seasons. We have photographic proof that the model was labeled NCC-7100 whether we could clearly see it on screen or not. There's no more justification for it not to be the Stargazer as the wall sculpture's justification not to be the Enterprise-C.

Blip wrote: View Post
Dukhat just because refits weren't obviously portrayed in repeated movies or episodes as being de rigeur for ships in the fleet, doesn't mean they didn't happen. For example, I'd suspect that the Reliant and her sisters of similar low registries were at least partial refits (bearing in mind 1701 was commissioned in the 2240s).

It could simply be that the older designs still in service by TNG didn't need any refitting (beyond what could be accomplished by interior systems' upgrades) as they were no longer serving as frontline ships.

For later-registry vessels however, they may have reached the point in their life-cycle where a major refit had been scheduled (or perhaps more likely warranted as part of the fleet improvements post Wolf 359?)
Sure, what you say is entirely possible. But here's how I interpret what I saw and heard on screen:

Starfleet sent 40 starships to combat the Borg in BoBW. They were all destroyed. The dialogue from Shelby seems to indicate that these 40 ships represented the majority of ships in Starfleet, although DS9 would later show that Starfleet has thousands of ships. She also said that the fleet would be rebuilt within a year, but most of the ships we saw in DS9 were Excelsiors and Mirandas, which were clearly not new. The vast majority of the other DS9 ships were the Akira, Saber and Steamrunner classes. If those classes weren't new either, then where are all the new ships that Shelby's talking about? So how do we justify all this?

Here's my take: Most of the Galaxy-style ship designs were relatively new as of the start of TNG. Those new ships were what Starfleet mostly used against the Borg at Wolf 359 because they represented the best that Starfleet could throw at this new powerful threat. Yes, there were lots of older ships like the Excelsior and Miranda classes, but either Starfleet didn't think they'd be much help, or they vastly underestimated the Borg threat by not using them (probably a bit of both). The destruction of 40 top-of-the-line ships while leaving older and outdated ships still functioning could have been considered a huge loss for Starfleet, justifying Shelby's comment. By the time of the Dominion War Starfleet realized that they'd need all their ships, not just the top-of-the-line ones, which is why we saw old designs along with newer ones, and considerably more than 40. By that time, Starfleet had replenished its losses from Wolf 359 with new ship classes such as the Akira, Steamrunner, Saber, Defiant and Sovereign, specifically designed to combat the Borg, which was why they were used in the Sector 001 battle in FC. YMMV.
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