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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old January 29 2014, 01:47 AM   #556
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
Also, how do you know that CIS went right to D1. Even the Cinefantastique article, from what I've read of it in regards to D1, seems to be saying that Digital Magic did have D1 decks at the time, but there was no specific mention of TNG actually being edited on them.
The archive of the Official Fan Club article I linked to says Post Group started using D1 for post-production in Season 4.

They list the equipment in the next paragraph of the article after the one I quoted. It includes Sony D1 decks.

So I don't know what happened, if anything, when they moved to Digital Magic.

It could also be that for some reason Unitel provided D2's of the film scans, while it was then edited on D1. This would still make some sense, since editing in the higher quality component color realm would at least help to reduce errors with bluescreen compositing, etc. But the initial source data would still have been composite video.
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Old January 29 2014, 01:57 AM   #557
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

This also says the final product was on D2 or 1" analog
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_tv_dvd/

Although the article is about the sound mixing, there is this comment:
Smith adds that Paramount was lucky to have digital multitrack mixes for all of the newer Star Trek series. “They mixed those digitally, although they ended up being analog laid back to 1-inch tape or D2, which is composite rather than component video,” he remarks.
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Old January 29 2014, 02:12 AM   #558
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

SpHeRe31459 wrote: View Post

They list the equipment in the next paragraph of the article after the one I quoted. It includes Sony D1 decks.
It's also funny how, aside from the Sony VTR's, they mention the model numbers for everything else, but for the "D1"'s they just say "two Sony D1 Digital Recorders". And as we've seen earlier in this thread, people can get confused as too whether it is D1 or D2 that is component or composite, and I've got to wonder if, when Desire Gonzalez wrote that article, if the person they were interviewing said D1 by mistake when the really meant D2. The whole point with those two paragraphs is that TNG had moved from doing it's SFX in analog to doing them in digital.

But, also on the sidebar, and in the article, it's just talking about the Special Effects (ship shots, phaser shots, etc.) being done on digital tape. It is not talking about what the final master, containing all the live-action and SFX shots, was. It just says that the Edit master was on D1.

As well, even with the Edit master being on a digital format doesn't mean that the Editor could not have Edited the entire show, live-action and SFX, onto Betacam SP (which is also component, just analog). But from what I've seen of the upressed footage in Season 5, it didn't look like CBS had gone from a digital source. Sure it looked better than the upressed video of Seasons 1 to 3, but it looked too soft to have come from a digital source, unlike DS9's Season 1.
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Old January 29 2014, 02:27 AM   #559
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
It's also funny how, aside from the Sony VTR's, they mention the model numbers for everything else, but for the "D1"'s they just say "two Sony D1 Digital Recorders".
Yep I noticed that too. Makes ya wonder.

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
And as we've seen earlier in this thread, people can get confused as too whether it is D1 or D2 that is component or composite, and I've got to wonder if, when Desire Gonzalez wrote that article, if the person they were interviewing said D1 by mistake when the really meant D2. The whole point with those two paragraphs is that TNG had moved from doing it's SFX in analog to doing them in digital.

But, also on the sidebar, and in the article, it's just talking about the Special Effects (ship shots, phaser shots, etc.) being done on digital tape. It is not talking about what the final master, containing all the live-action and SFX shots, was. It just says that the Edit master was on D1.

As well, even with the Edit master being on a digital format doesn't mean that the Editor could not have Edited the entire show, live-action and SFX, onto Betacam SP (which is also component, just analog).
It's really too bad we don't have a more definitive article somewhere straight from the horses mouth of one of the post guys. Because as it stands now it's just a mess of little tidbits from early-to-mid 90s articles.

Sadly there are some pretty thorough books from later in the franchise (Star Trek: Action! is what I'm thinking of, made much later, circa 1998) but none from the era where things were transitioning from analog to digital.
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Old January 29 2014, 04:51 AM   #560
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Right now I'm just watching "Second Chances" and I'm at 26:56 into the episode (where the two Riker's have their argument over the engineering "pool table"), and in the shot "yellow" Riker is extremely sharp, while "red" Riker looks like he's been through a couple of analog generations, even though it should've been a simple split screen effect (of course there could also be that the camera op never adjusted his focus for "red" Riker). Even with Betacam SP, it should've only been the third generation (second Betacam generation) from film for those two shots, and Betacam SP is rated for 6-8 generations before you notice any discernible loss. D2 I believe is closer to 40 generations. Even if Paramount used a different master for the DVD (even a DigiBeta or S-VHS copy from the late-90's), I don't think we'd see that much video loss, since it would've been sourced from the final edit master, and it probably would've only been one more generation away.

Last edited by tomswift2002; January 29 2014 at 05:04 AM.
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Old January 29 2014, 07:51 AM   #561
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
Right now I'm just watching "Second Chances" and I'm at 26:56 into the episode (where the two Riker's have their argument over the engineering "pool table"), and in the shot "yellow" Riker is extremely sharp, while "red" Riker looks like he's been through a couple of analog generations, even though it should've been a simple split screen effect (of course there could also be that the camera op never adjusted his focus for "red" Riker). Even with Betacam SP, it should've only been the third generation (second Betacam generation) from film for those two shots, and Betacam SP is rated for 6-8 generations before you notice any discernible loss. D2 I believe is closer to 40 generations. Even if Paramount used a different master for the DVD (even a DigiBeta or S-VHS copy from the late-90's), I don't think we'd see that much video loss, since it would've been sourced from the final edit master, and it probably would've only been one more generation away.
I don't remember that scene off hand, but if that pans from one Riker to another that shot could have been setup using the anamorphic trick they used quite a few times in TNG. It results in a rather blurry presentation, especially while panning. It was used for two Dax's in DS9 so maybe it was used here?

http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/04/tng...or-widescreen/
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Old January 29 2014, 08:16 AM   #562
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
Here's the quote from "The Making Of Star Trek Deep Space Nine" by Judith & Garfield reeves-Stevens, published December 1994, pg 242:
Every physical element of Deep Space Nine is shot on film, not videotape. However, that film is just a first step. As soon as it's printed, it's sent to Unitel Video, where it is transferred to D2 videotape. Then the film is put into storage and ---- provided no disasters occur while an episode is in postproduction --- it never sees the light of day again.

The film elements that are transferred include everything shot on sets and on location by the first and second units, all the passes of models shot at Image G, and all film of physical matte paintings executed by Illusion Arts. Live-action footage is also duped onto standard VHS cassettes so the producers can review them as dailies.
Aside from D2 and VHS videotape, no other videotape is mentioned as being used. Also, you have to remember Digital Betacam wasn't on the market til 1993 (D2 was out in 1988), so before 1993 tapes used for final mastering would've been Betacam SP, D1 and D2. Also, you have to remember that the Reeves-Stevens, even though they were not producers at this point, for their book, they still had unlimited access to the sets for the book. And if you watch the opening credits for DS9, when we get the shot of the underside of the station with the core, I did notice rainbowing right along the edges of the lower part of the core.

Also, how do you know that CIS went right to D1. Even the Cinefantastique article, from what I've read of it in regards to D1, seems to be saying that Digital Magic did have D1 decks at the time, but there was no specific mention of TNG actually being edited on them.
And here's the quote from the Cinefantastique article:

Once principle photography for an episode is completed, individual effects elements, including live-action sequences shot on the STAR TREK sound stages at Paramount as well as spaceship sequences shot using a front light-back light ultraviolet matting system on one of the motion-control stages at Image "G", are brought to the facilities of Composite Image Systems (CIS), where they are transferred from film to the digital tape format known as D1.

...

The D1 tapes containing the visual effects shots are then moved from CIS to Digital Magic for the final stages of the effects work.
So what could've been going on is either the D1 tapes were duped to D2 for offline editing, with D1 saved for the online... or only the VFX elements got the true D1 treatment. Or possibly the Reeves-Steven's are mistaken. They do mention the film being printed which wouldn't have happened.
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Old January 29 2014, 09:18 AM   #563
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Is it the fourth-last cap here: http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thum...bum=149&page=8 ?

If so, they look about the same to me.
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Old January 29 2014, 06:52 PM   #564
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

With the Reeves-Stevens you also have to remember that they were writing a book that would be read by the general public, and they would need to use terminology and descriptions that a "laymen" could understand. But, even though the film would not need to be printed, the Reeves-Stevens may have found people would've understood that better than saying it would have to be developed and then the negative scanned and reversed in a Telecine machine. The only other information I've found as to what tapes were used was on pg. 246' in a side bar, where it is mentioned that 60% of the stations that aired DS9 received their copies via satellite, while the other 40% received their copies from Paramount on 3/4" (U-Matic) tape. Surely the DVD's would not have been mastered from U-Matic if there was a higher quality source available.

With the scene in "Second Chances", it was not a panning shot with the two Riker's. It started off with "yellow" Riker entering into engineering by the warp core, followed him to the table and was locked off there before "red" Riker even entered the shot (but it did lead upto the 4th last picture in Tosk's link). Unfortunately it looks worst in motion than in that screen cap. And I've compared the "Wishes Were..." Scene, and while there is some softness in that scene, it is not as bad as in SC. (I was checking both out on a PS3 connected to a 40" LCD via HDMI.)

I also happened to tak a look at "Dax". You might want to take a look at the whole opening credits sequence for this episode. It shows quite a bit of composite crosstalk in the graphics and on the station itself. Other episodes I've also been noticing the crosstalk issue on the phaser/tractor beam towers.
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Old January 29 2014, 06:57 PM   #565
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
With the scene in "Second Chances", it was not a panning shot with the two Riker's. It started off with "yellow" Riker entering into engineering by the warp core, followed him to the table and was locked off there before "red" Riker even entered the shot (but it did lead upto the 4th last picture in Tosk's link). Unfortunately it looks worst in motion than in that screen cap. And I've compared the "Wishes Were..." Scene, and while there is some softness in that scene, it is not as bad as in SC.
Hmm, well, the good news at least is that the softening should have be fixed by CBS Digital when they recomposited the footage with modern digital tools for the S6 Blu-ray release.
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Old January 29 2014, 09:30 PM   #566
Maxwell Everett
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
With the Reeves-Stevens you also have to remember that they were writing a book that would be read by the general public, and they would need to use terminology and descriptions that a "laymen" could understand. But, even though the film would not need to be printed, the Reeves-Stevens may have found people would've understood that better than saying it would have to be developed and then the negative scanned and reversed in a Telecine machine.
All they really would have had to do was substitute the word "printed' with "developed" which a general audience in 1994 would have understood, since 35mm film was still the dominant format for still photography. The fact that they say "printed" probably represents a misunderstanding on their part, rather than an attempt to dumb down the content for their readers. To me, this throws the D2 reference (which would certainly be a head-scratcher to a general audience! "What's D2?") into question. Still, they may have been partially correct as I suggested in my last post.
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Old January 30 2014, 12:43 AM   #567
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
Still, they may have been partially correct as I suggested in my last post.
Yep, starting to think you're on the right track with your theory. From just looking at the episodes and seeing signs of composite video artifacts it sure seems like TNG and early DS9 were at some point composite video in the chain of editing.
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Old January 30 2014, 06:02 AM   #568
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Well on page 249 of the book, the authors also mention how for the online edits of the episodes DS9 was not able to afford the "digital" editors that were in use at Digital Magic, so the editors were still relying on the old linear editing method.

Considering that there was a cost issue involved, D2 was probably used, as it was able to be put into existing set ups at a lower cost than D1, and it was more compatible with analog systems. As for saying D2 in the book, if you notice right in the quote the authors also put "D2 video tape", so even if the average reader didn't know what D2 was, they would still get that it was videotape, just a type used by Pro's. It would just be like telling someone you had been using DVHS----they would probably ask you if it was anything like VHS.
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Old January 31 2014, 01:17 AM   #569
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

I always figured that they switched to something by the fourth season of DS9, because the picture quality got so much better from then on compared to the first three seasons. Stuff like rainbow artifacts were no longer common. Same with VOY looking better by the second season after the first.
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Old January 31 2014, 01:40 AM   #570
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Re: Season FIVE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I always figured that they switched to something by the fourth season of DS9, because the picture quality got so much better from then on compared to the first three seasons. Stuff like rainbow artifacts were no longer common. Same with VOY looking better by the second season after the first.
I wouldn't be surprised if at some point both DS9 and Voyager switched to Digital Betacam, since it offered picture quality that was equal to or better than D1, but at a price that was a whole lot cheaper than D1.

That being said, there may still be some shots in the later seasons that contained the composite artifacts due to reuse of existing shots on tape (even if they digitally copies the shots from D2 to Digital Betacam digitally, since they would be going from a composite source to a component source), or even the opening. Sure the opening had a few shots changed with the Defiant, but a number of shots remained throughout all 7 seasons (such as the comet cloud, or the shot looking up at the lower core). I should get out Trials 'N' Tribble-ations to on the TOS Season 2 Blu-Ray and see if I spot any composite artifacts on that up-ressed version (at 25:20 there is a wall decoration that, as the camera moves with Bashir, the decoration starts to pulse with black lines---the decoration's a shiny silver thing that reflects the different color lights, but the black pulses appear to be from a composite issue, plus there was rain bowing in the opening credits when we see the Defiant pulling away from the pylon --- I'd say DS9 was definitely still using D2 in season 5).

As for TNG, in "All Good Things", after the collapse of the anomaly, we go to Q's courtroom, and star with a high shot over Picard. It you take a look at the grate underneath Picard, on all the broadcasts and DVD's of the episode I've seen (even upressed to 1080p) that grate always rainbows. I realize even with SD component the light might be causing issues, but I think it might be a definite clue that TNG was still being edited in the composite realm at the time.

Last edited by tomswift2002; January 31 2014 at 03:14 AM.
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