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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 27 2014, 10:23 PM   #121
Locutus of Bored
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
No I don't think we are holding him up to a higher standard here. We just want to see that he has an awareness that he and his crew should aim for such high standards and an awareness of why they can't be met in any given situation.
How would that be explained in detail in a movie to your satisfaction given the long list of expectations you've given here without running down a sixty point checklist, with Spock explaining why they can't do each one, right in the middle of the action? Can't we just assume that they know the strengths and weaknesses of the ship without verbally spelling it out for the audience?
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Old January 27 2014, 10:38 PM   #122
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
No I don't think we are holding him up to a higher standard here. We just want to see that he has an awareness that he and his crew should aim for such high standards and an awareness of why they can't be met in any given situation.
How would that be explained in detail in a movie to your satisfaction given the long list of expectations you've given here without running down a sixty point checklist, with Spock explaining why they can't do each one, right in the middle of the action? Can't we just assume that they know the strengths and weaknesses of the ship without verbally spelling it out for the audience?

Heh, to me that really slowed down the ship battle in Generations. Sure, we get that the Enterprise is clearly superior to the dinky, rickety BOP. Yes, we understand that the Duras sisters used Geordi to get the upper hand. And frankly, that's all we needed*. No need to spend 2 minutes of having a defective plasma coil to trigger their cloaking device and ruin the pacing of the fight, so therefore no need to waste dialogue on lengthy exposition. The Enterprise should have shot her down with all weapons blazing but still have the BOP hit the Galaxy's equivalent of a major artery before going down. As it was, all that technobabble and exposition during battle was enough to rob the scene of a lot of tension. Show, don't tell.

*Now, if it was a more unique ship than the BOP used in the previous 4 movies, but that's for another thread
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Old January 27 2014, 11:11 PM   #123
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
I'm also kind of surprised that no one mentions Nero's crew when Kirk offers his assistance. Does Nero refusing assistance really reflect every single one of his remaining crew on the Narada? It sure didn't look like it since we see his crew fleeing their stations in panic after Spock rams his ship into the hull. They're running scared! Nero is the only one who stays at his station, so why assume his refusal is reflected on the crew who are panicking??
I mentioned them!
Doesn't count.

Whenever someone is engaging in the "Am I the only one who noticed ______?" species of rhetoric—as Jeyl clearly was here—whether anyone actually had noticed/mentioned the thing in question is beside the point.
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Old January 27 2014, 11:33 PM   #124
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
No I don't think we are holding him up to a higher standard here. We just want to see that he has an awareness that he and his crew should aim for such high standards and an awareness of why they can't be met in any given situation.
How would that be explained in detail in a movie to your satisfaction given the long list of expectations you've given here without running down a sixty point checklist, with Spock explaining why they can't do each one, right in the middle of the action? Can't we just assume that they know the strengths and weaknesses of the ship without verbally spelling it out for the audience?
Heh, to me that really slowed down the ship battle in Generations. Sure, we get that the Enterprise is clearly superior to the dinky, rickety BOP. Yes, we understand that the Duras sisters used Geordi to get the upper hand. And frankly, that's all we needed*. No need to spend 2 minutes of having a defective plasma coil to trigger their cloaking device and ruin the pacing of the fight, so therefore no need to waste dialogue on lengthy exposition. The Enterprise should have shot her down with all weapons blazing but still have the BOP hit the Galaxy's equivalent of a major artery before going down. As it was, all that technobabble and exposition during battle was enough to rob the scene of a lot of tension. Show, don't tell.
That scene drives me crazy every time I see it. Riker and Worf stop everything for a damn history lesson on Birds of Prey and fire off a shot once a minute. Did they forget the Enterprise could do this (the beginning part, not the rest)?



How awesome would that have been fully realized on the big screen with quality FX?

Even with the shields being ineffective, the Enterprise should have been able to unleash a barrage on that BoP and destroy it in a minute without any silly Death Star exhaust port trickery needed.

I don't have a problem with the BoP using surprise, superior maneuverability, and the shield advantage to stay alive longer than normal, or with them getting a targeted shot in that eventually will destroy the Enterprise, but having Riker, Data, and Worf carry on a conversation like that in the middle of battle while barely returning fire made them look grossly incompetent, when Riker is supposed to be a tactical genius.

Hell, even when he asked Worf to fire a spread of torpedoes, he fires a single torpedo, and it's apparently set to Rascal Scooter speed for dramatic purposes, because it was the slowest thing ever. In reality the BoP would have already been able to cloak and move before the damn torpedo even got near it.

Sorry for the rant, but that whole scene just bugs me. I'm fine with the Enterprise-D going down. But it shouldn't go down like a punk.
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Old January 27 2014, 11:54 PM   #125
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Having only just finished watching Generations for the first time in a long while, that bit niggled me too
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Old January 28 2014, 01:12 AM   #126
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

sonak wrote:
For instance, why did they all agree to wait twenty-five years to get "revenge" on someone who wasn't responsible for what happened?
I think the idea was that they were on Rura Penthe the whole time - though since those scenes were deleted, it's commonly assumed that no longer holds. However, the whole idea behind the transmission about Rura Penthe intercepted by Uhura is just that.

Pauln6 wrote:
It wasn't very realistic that they would all retain a burning desire to destroy billions of lives even after 25 years - or if they did you would have thought they would have started with Rura Penthe.
Well, Nero didn't have the red matter yet, though once he had captured the Jellyfish I guess he could have gone back to Rura Penthe and given it the Vulcan treatment. Maybe he thought destroying the Klingon armada was good enough...
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Old January 28 2014, 01:15 AM   #127
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

The Enterprise-D was a punk! Yeah, I said it! Wanna fight about it?
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Old January 28 2014, 01:30 AM   #128
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
No I don't think we are holding him up to a higher standard here. We just want to see that he has an awareness that he and his crew should aim for such high standards and an awareness of why they can't be met in any given situation.
How would that be explained in detail in a movie to your satisfaction given the long list of expectations you've given here without running down a sixty point checklist, with Spock explaining why they can't do each one, right in the middle of the action? Can't we just assume that they know the strengths and weaknesses of the ship without verbally spelling it out for the audience?
It's a valid point and I'm sure there has to be some kind of balance and I applaud the way they tried to minimise technobable (even if I despair at the way they mangled real world physics to the point where my friend's 8-year old son could pick holes in it).

Maybe something along the lines of:

'Transporters?'

'Ineffective. Gravitational distortion has increased beyond tolerance. If we stay here any longer, the Enterprise will not be able to escape.'

'Sulu, pull us out - now. Arm weapons - full power - and target that ship.'

Captain?

'I don't see any way that Nero's crew can possibly survive this kind of gravitational stress, but if any of them or that technology winds up back in the past... let's just say I'm starting to like my life just the way it is.'

'Open fire.'
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Old January 28 2014, 01:55 AM   #129
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

But why do you need everything spelled out to you?
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Old January 28 2014, 01:56 AM   #130
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Pauln6 wrote:
let's just say I'm starting to like my life just the way it is.
To nitpick, if the red-matter-black-hole-time-travel operated in the 'usual' way it wouldn't have affected nuKirk's life in the Abramsverse, but instead would have ended up in the past in yet another new timeline.
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Old January 28 2014, 02:29 AM   #131
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

BillJ wrote: View Post
But why do you need everything spelled out to you?
This is what I don't understand. In real life, things aren't all neat and tidy and able to be wrapped up with a couple of lines of dialogue. Real life is messy, and full of holes and contradictions.

It's the messy stuff that makes things interesting, and by the way, gives people on these forums stuff to talk about.
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Old January 28 2014, 02:49 AM   #132
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Maybe it just comes down to Pine's take on Kirk: he seemed too blase about it. Shatner's Kirk (especially in his first season prime) could have sold the grim necessity of it.

I want to thank everyone, btw, for making this such a lively and thought-provoking debate. Sonak in particular got me thinking with his "poor form" observation. I still hold my original position but not as strongly as when I threw this out there.
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Old January 28 2014, 05:57 AM   #133
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Maybe it just comes down to Pine's take on Kirk: he seemed too blase about it. Shatner's Kirk (especially in his first season prime) could have sold the grim necessity of it.
In fairness to Pine, he was given the task of playing Kirk on his first space assignment, cocky and untempered by experience, whereas Shatner's Kirk was played as an experienced veteran who had seen the wonders and horrors of space up close for years.
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Old January 28 2014, 06:34 AM   #134
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Maybe it just comes down to Pine's take on Kirk: he seemed too blase about it. Shatner's Kirk (especially in his first season prime) could have sold the grim necessity of it.
In fairness to Pine, he was given the task of playing Kirk on his first space assignment, cocky and untempered by experience, whereas Shatner's Kirk was played as an experienced veteran who had seen the wonders and horrors of space up close for years.
On that first day Kirk had to deal with an enemy/threat who:

Was from 129 years in the future.

Had advanced weaponry and technology.

Had already destroyed a plant and killed it's 6 billion inhabitants.

Had destroyed 5 starfleet ships.


I don't think Shatner Kirk had to deal with anything matching such scope and magnitude. The closest things I can think of would be The Doomsday Machine, and the events of TUC.

Pine Kirk made a judgment call to permanently end the threat Nero posed. That's his responsibility as a captain. Pine Kirk did extend an olive branch before destroying the Narada and Nero smacked his hand away. Despite all Nero had done; including kill his (James T. Kirk's) father. Pine Kirk was attempting to find peace with the Romulans.

Shatner Kirk had no qualms about firing on General Chang's ship in TUC. He didn't treat Khan and his people on the Reliant with kid gloves either. All the shots to area surrounding Reliant's bridge affirm that. Then there are all the Klingons Kirk killed in TSFS. By self-destruct of the Enterprise and by kicking them off a cliff in to a river of lava.

No matter the universe.
KIRK GIVES NO QUARTER TO THOSE WHO CROSS HIM.
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Old January 28 2014, 06:44 AM   #135
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I don't think anybody but latter-day Roddenberry cared about the bug.
I'm fairly sure I recall LOCs in "Starlog", "The Best of Trek" and newszines of the day ranting about the death of the Ceti eel, and many other changes imposed on Trek by Nick Meyer and Harve Bennett. (And I hadn't heard the Roddenberry "little old lady stomping on a cockroach" jibe before.)

TV Tropes notes it as "There Is No Kill Like Overkill: Kirk phasers a Ceti eel, vaporizing it, even though his foot would have worked equally well."
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