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Old January 26 2014, 01:58 AM   #16
Ar-Pharazon
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Would torpedo launchers need to be that long?

I would've thought something more like the super-phaser we saw on the Enterprise-D in All Good Things.
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Old January 26 2014, 03:06 AM   #17
Unicron
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Blip wrote: View Post

Makes perfect sense, IMO. Does SotS make any mention of New Orleans being designed as a smaller-scale pathfinder for the tech we see later on as the Nebula- and Galaxy-classes?
Partially. It was considered part of the "New Fleet" package that began introduction in the 2330s, alongside designs like the Steamrunner and Challenger. The Galaxy and the Nebula classes both drew design elements from the New Orleans.

Originally, it was assumed that the design wouldn't be active along the frontier and border areas, so it had no torpedo launchers in favor of a larger sensor suite. It was felt that the traditional torpedo systems would take up too much internal space and the trade was acceptable given the peaceful relations, although the decision was controversial in Starfleet. The Cardassian War changed that, and the New Orleans ships in service initially fared badly because of the lack of torpedos. Their systems were otherwise very similar to those on the Ambassador class, and eventually the ASDB found that mounting the bolt-on launchers was a good alternative. It gave the New Orleans the needed punch while also bypassing the problem of internal space. The ships often served in units with Steamrunners against the Cardassians.
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Old January 26 2014, 07:20 AM   #18
LOLPeanutButter
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Blip wrote: View Post
LOL @ "torpedo-spamming" the Borg cube
I play Star Trek Online, and I fly a "torpedo boat."
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Old January 26 2014, 12:40 PM   #19
Blip
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Unicron wrote: View Post
Partially. It was considered part of the "New Fleet" package that began introduction in the 2330s, alongside designs like the Steamrunner and Challenger. The Galaxy and the Nebula classes both drew design elements from the New Orleans.

Originally, it was assumed that the design wouldn't be active along the frontier and border areas, so it had no torpedo launchers in favor of a larger sensor suite. It was felt that the traditional torpedo systems would take up too much internal space and the trade was acceptable given the peaceful relations, although the decision was controversial in Starfleet. The Cardassian War changed that, and the New Orleans ships in service initially fared badly because of the lack of torpedos. Their systems were otherwise very similar to those on the Ambassador class, and eventually the ASDB found that mounting the bolt-on launchers was a good alternative. It gave the New Orleans the needed punch while also bypassing the problem of internal space. The ships often served in units with Steamrunners against the Cardassians.
Ah, thank you The bolt-on torpoedo concept also makes a lot of sense.

However:
The 2330s seems a little too early to me. I'd have thought early 2340s to be a realistic timeframe, due to both the class registry numbers and also since the Ambassador, Renaissance and their ilk were still quite prevalent. Likewise, I'd expect Challenger to be of later construction. Since the Cardie War didn't start until 2347and lasted well into the 2350s, there's ample opportunity to have observed this weakness in design and rushed to correct it.

As for Steamrunner, I can't envisage that as pre-Wolf-359. Based on the layout and the stylistic cues (such as they are for anything as of ST:FC!) I'd have put it as something designed around the same time as the Defiant, at the earliest.
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Old January 26 2014, 02:06 PM   #20
Mark_Nguyen
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Re: New Orleans-Class

^That's a common enough school of thought, however it overlooks the somewhat more common school that likes to think of NCC numbers as linear, thus placing all the FC designs before the launch of the Galaxy class in the late 50s (at the latest). Thus, many people just think that "design cues" are simply from a different group of designs that have stayed similar through several decades. Inasmuch as some case designs (Volvo, VW, etc.) stayed the same for many years concurrently, and how US or Russian warships can be distinguished by certain design cues regardless of what decade you're looking at.

So, the "Galaxy-esque" and "Sovereign-esque" families of starships all follow certain looks, with certain refinements over the years, both tending to become more streamlined as they get more advanced for example. No, this doesn't explain why there were no FC designs in the wreckage at Wolf 359 (or anyplace before FC), nor any Wolf 259 designs AFTER Wolf 359, but personally I'm happy simply thinking that space is just really, really big.

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Old January 26 2014, 02:22 PM   #21
Robert Comsol
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Let's have a closer look at these pods of the New Orleans Class in their raw stage configuration:





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Old January 26 2014, 03:23 PM   #22
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: New Orleans-Class

So THAT's what it looks like under the bussard collector caps!
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Old January 26 2014, 03:45 PM   #23
Robert Comsol
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Re: New Orleans-Class

If you are thinking of the warp nacelles of the Cheyenne Class, yes, but those were actually made from the older version of the Schwan Stabilo Swing.


(newer version)

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Old January 26 2014, 07:09 PM   #24
Unicron
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Blip wrote: View Post

Ah, thank you The bolt-on torpoedo concept also makes a lot of sense.

However:
The 2330s seems a little too early to me. I'd have thought early 2340s to be a realistic timeframe, due to both the class registry numbers and also since the Ambassador, Renaissance and their ilk were still quite prevalent. Likewise, I'd expect Challenger to be of later construction. Since the Cardie War didn't start until 2347and lasted well into the 2350s, there's ample opportunity to have observed this weakness in design and rushed to correct it.

As for Steamrunner, I can't envisage that as pre-Wolf-359. Based on the layout and the stylistic cues (such as they are for anything as of ST:FC!) I'd have put it as something designed around the same time as the Defiant, at the earliest.
Well, the design timeline from ASDB actually fits in pretty well, with the New Orleans design being approved in 2335 and the first vessels entering service in 2342. Several production groups were built until 2348, when production ceased to focus on other designs. SoTSF lists about 30 vessels built altogether.

The Steamrunner is considered a heavy destroyer in the ASDB sources, having been designed around the same time to perform traditional support and defense duties. The Freedom class had been introduced as a modern destroyer, but it proved underpowered against Romulan forces during the Tomed Incident. The Steamrunner was developed as a companion unit, one that would be capable of such missions while not forcing Starfleet to divert designs like the Ambassador and Excelsior away from their intended role as explorers.
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Old January 26 2014, 07:20 PM   #25
Dukhat
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Mark_Nguyen wrote: View Post
^That's a common enough school of thought, however it overlooks the somewhat more common school that likes to think of NCC numbers as linear, thus placing all the FC designs before the launch of the Galaxy class in the late 50s (at the latest). Thus, many people just think that "design cues" are simply from a different group of designs that have stayed similar through several decades. Inasmuch as some case designs (Volvo, VW, etc.) stayed the same for many years concurrently, and how US or Russian warships can be distinguished by certain design cues regardless of what decade you're looking at.
The things is, we can't just write off all registries being linear, as there's evidence that they are not chronological. For example, the 5XXXX Oberth class Tsiolkovsky's dedication plaque stated that the ship was launched only a year before the Enterprise-D. Plus, the Pegasus was the same type of ship with another 5XXXX registry, and it was stated in dialogue that it was only five years older than the Enterprise-D. The brand-new Prometheus class prototype had a 5XXXX registry as well.

Plus, we have the Ambassador class, which visually is far more advanced than the older Excelsior class, and yet the known ships have registries of only 2XXXX while the majority of Excelsiors we saw have regs of 4XXXX (not to mention the even older Miranda class, with regs of 3XXXX!)

What this has to do with the OP is that 1.) I think the "Galaxy family" of ship classes (i.e. the New Orleans, Springfield, Challenger, Cheyenne, Freedom, and Nebula) were all built around the same time (circa 2350-60) even though they mostly have 5XXXX and 6XXXX registries; and 2.) that the FC ships are actually new, post-BoBW ships regardless of their low registries. I understand that two ship classes with drastically different design lineages can exist at the same time (i.e. the Constitution and Oberth classes), but there are more similarities to the Sovereign than anything else (the bridge modules, the escape pods, the angular style of the nacelles and saucers.)
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Old January 26 2014, 07:27 PM   #26
LOLPeanutButter
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Re: New Orleans-Class

This is why I don't like taking about starship design history and linage. It always turns into a registry debate. ALWAYS.
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Old January 26 2014, 10:51 PM   #27
Robert Comsol
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Could it be that the first digit of the five digit registries indicates the "birthplace" of that particular ship?

I just pulled Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards and noticed that a couple of the ships listed there and whose registries began with "7" were also constructed there.

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Old January 27 2014, 09:01 PM   #28
Blip
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Mark_Nguyen wrote: View Post
^That's a common enough school of thought, however it overlooks the somewhat more common school that likes to think of NCC numbers as linear, thus placing all the FC designs before the launch of the Galaxy class in the late 50s (at the latest). Thus, many people just think that "design cues" are simply from a different group of designs that have stayed similar through several decades. Inasmuch as some case designs (Volvo, VW, etc.) stayed the same for many years concurrently, and how US or Russian warships can be distinguished by certain design cues regardless of what decade you're looking at.
The things is, we can't just write off all registries being linear, as there's evidence that they are not chronological. For example, the 5XXXX Oberth class Tsiolkovsky's dedication plaque stated that the ship was launched only a year before the Enterprise-D. Plus, the Pegasus was the same type of ship with another 5XXXX registry, and it was stated in dialogue that it was only five years older than the Enterprise-D. The brand-new Prometheus class prototype had a 5XXXX registry as well.

Plus, we have the Ambassador class, which visually is far more advanced than the older Excelsior class, and yet the known ships have registries of only 2XXXX while the majority of Excelsiors we saw have regs of 4XXXX (not to mention the even older Miranda class, with regs of 3XXXX!)

What this has to do with the OP is that 1.) I think the "Galaxy family" of ship classes (i.e. the New Orleans, Springfield, Challenger, Cheyenne, Freedom, and Nebula) were all built around the same time (circa 2350-60) even though they mostly have 5XXXX and 6XXXX registries; and 2.) that the FC ships are actually new, post-BoBW ships regardless of their low registries. I understand that two ship classes with drastically different design lineages can exist at the same time (i.e. the Constitution and Oberth classes), but there are more similarities to the Sovereign than anything else (the bridge modules, the escape pods, the angular style of the nacelles and saucers.)

Actually I tend to go with the far easier "ILM didn't give a hoot about the registries" route. The FC designs were only intended to be background ships (as clearly evidenced by the low quality nature of the models in terms of both textures and polys - the slight exception being the Akira*), so I imagine they gave very little thought to it.

Furthermore, several of the design cues present are similar to Defiant (see the Norway-class) which I'd think we should all be able to agree was pretty much a first among Starfleet designs.

Of course, there's always the possibility that the background ships looked substantially different when they were first commissioned, and that the styles seen in FC are indicative of heavy refits and modifications - likely in the wake of Wolf-359 itself (it's not as if we don't have precedent for it, what with the Constitution refit... and I also adhere to that rule for the low-registry Grissom seen in TSFS)



* The Akira I regard almost certainly as having had a partial refit, what with the saucer, registry, clunky nacelles, old-fashioned deflector.... and then the new-fangled lifeboat hatches slapped on top.
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Old January 28 2014, 02:12 AM   #29
Dukhat
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Blip wrote: View Post
Actually I tend to go with the far easier "ILM didn't give a hoot about the registries" route. The FC designs were only intended to be background ships (as clearly evidenced by the low quality nature of the models in terms of both textures and polys - the slight exception being the Akira*), so I imagine they gave very little thought to it.
Oh, I totally agree with you about ILM...I truly believe that in STIII, they gave the Excelsior a registry of "2000" just because she was a big ship, while the Grissom only had a 638 registry because she was small

Furthermore, several of the design cues present are similar to Defiant (see the Norway-class) which I'd think we should all be able to agree was pretty much a first among Starfleet designs.
Exactly. The Norway's ventral view (which was simply a cut-and-paste jumble of the Defiant's texture) is another example of why these ships were new as of FC and not older per a chronological registry scheme.

Of course, there's always the possibility that the background ships looked substantially different when they were first commissioned, and that the styles seen in FC are indicative of heavy refits and modifications - likely in the wake of Wolf-359 itself (it's not as if we don't have precedent for it, what with the Constitution refit... and I also adhere to that rule for the low-registry Grissom seen in TSFS)...The Akira I regard almost certainly as having had a partial refit, what with the saucer, registry, clunky nacelles, old-fashioned deflector.... and then the new-fangled lifeboat hatches slapped on top.
See, I kinda have a problem with the idea of the FC ships being refitted from older ship designs. Mainly because we saw a ton of even older ship designs still in use in TNG (the Miranda, Excelsior, Constellation and Oberth), and none of them have been refitted to look any different from when we saw them in the 23rd century.

Plus, the majority of the Starfleet vessels used in the Borg attack of Sector 001 were the FC ships, implying that these were the new vessels Shelby mentioned in BoBW when she said the fleet would be back in less than a year. They were built to be Borg-killers, which was why we saw them, uh, attacking a Borg ship

I think the whole "refit" thing is analogous to the whole "Klingon blood is Pepto-Bismol pink" thing: It was used for the film it was portrayed in, but was never touched upon again after that in future incarnations of Trek.
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Last edited by Dukhat; January 28 2014 at 07:30 AM.
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Old January 28 2014, 10:11 AM   #30
Robert Comsol
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Re: New Orleans-Class

Dukhat wrote: View Post
I truly believe that in STIII, they gave the Excelsior a registry of "2000" just because she was a big ship, while the Grissom only had a 638 registry because she was small
...or a much older type of vessel, while Excelsior was brand new. (I shamelessly refer to my Oberth Class thread)

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