RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,604
Posts: 5,425,089
Members: 24,805
Currently online: 561
Newest member: David Ellerman

TrekToday headlines

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 27 2014, 07:26 PM   #31
Jedi_Master
Commodore
 
Jedi_Master's Avatar
 
Location: Why do you care?
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

So I supremely confused.

Is the going argument that a single garment, long enough to cover the buttocks on an average human but no longer than mid thigh needs will serve as proof that Starfleet is not a sexist organization? Or is it that this same garment needs to be described by a TrekLit author so that the entire written world knows that HUMANS in starfleet have progressed to the point that gender issues are no longer important?

Why is THIS garment so important as a symbol? Why do we assume that in the future wearing a skirt is "gender neutral"? Would it not be just as likely that 200 years from now female humans are forced to wear pants, and that it is considered "feminine" for males to wear pants and therefore Starfleet shows it's progressive nature by having male humans wear them as well?

I just don't get the argument here. Personally I think that skant is a silly looking, impractical outift. At least a few people agreed with me because they disappeared. However, if a Treklit guy like our dear Christopher decided to have a character wearing one, then I would roll my eyes and still enjoy reading the book. In the future what people wear is not a big deal. what they DO is the big deal. A Trek Lit author is free to make all kinds of interesting choices, that reflect his or her view of what the future will be like in an organization and culture that is free of many of the "definitions" that exist today. But forcing them to use ONE garment as proof of IDIC is just as silly as that little miniskirt that women wore in TOS and men wore in TNG.
Jedi_Master is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 27 2014, 08:00 PM   #32
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

I'm not saying it's important -- I'm saying just the opposite, that diversity in fashion should be accepted as something people have a right to practice and not argued about and objected to because it doesn't fit some narrow preconception about fashion or gender. You're the one making a federal case out of it; we're just saying it's not that big a deal. If you treat equality as something that has to be made an issue of and declaimed about in speeches, then clearly equality hasn't truly arrived yet. The real way to demonstrate it is not to make an issue out of it, to simply present it matter-of-factly as part of everyday life.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 27 2014, 08:33 PM   #33
Jedi_Master
Commodore
 
Jedi_Master's Avatar
 
Location: Why do you care?
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

So it's not a big deal, but the OP wanted to know if it exists in TrekLit and the conversation went from there to where? I mentioned my opinion that it went away because in the "real world" some people felt it looked silly, yet somehow my personal opinion is viewed as being illustrative of the fact that equality has not yet arrived because OBVIOUSLY my opinion is based on my male gender normative?
That is a circle in a circle in a circle - Skantception!

Both male and female humans wear non gender specific garb - PANTS!

The problem that arises is that most Trek fans acknowledge that the "ideal" future is one that is peaceful, inclusive, etc. yet some clamor for that future to reflect the most cutting edge and progressive thinking available at the current time.
For instance, a new Trek Series would undoubtedly be encouraged perhaps even required to have at least one LGBT character. Yet human culture embraces a multitude of ideas and mores, and a representative slice of a group of humans could contain any number of combinations, including religious individuals, monogamous heterosexual married individuals, and single, childless, asexual, genderless individuals. A recent Trek novel even had a crewmember who wore a hijab, a small detail that I thought was very cool as it showed a rare moment where religiously influenced cultural garb still existed in HUMAN culture.

I feel that it is a misplaced notion to expect that a specific character, costume, or event be placed within a story to PROVE that society in the future conforms to whatever the most progressive standard is at this current date. Why not just accept that whatever representative slice that the storyteller took of society in the 24th century did not include a person, place, or thing that is - by our standards - progressive?
Jedi_Master is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 27 2014, 08:41 PM   #34
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

Jedi_Master wrote: View Post
Both male and female humans wear non gender specific garb - PANTS!
Are you even listening? The idea that pants are not gender-specific is an extremely recent one. Even as recently as the '70s, during my own lifetime, pants were considered masculine attire, and girls who wore pants were considered tomboys.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 27 2014, 09:09 PM   #35
Jedi_Master
Commodore
 
Jedi_Master's Avatar
 
Location: Why do you care?
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

Christopher wrote: View Post
Jedi_Master wrote: View Post
Both male and female humans wear non gender specific garb - PANTS!
Are you even listening? The idea that pants are not gender-specific is an extremely recent one. Even as recently as the '70s, during my own lifetime, pants were considered masculine attire, and girls who wore pants were considered tomboys.
I noticed that point several posts ago, and I am unsure why you are bringing it into the discussion as it alone proves that Starfleet is a progressive organization by "current" standards. Even in the late 80's there were still lots of people who felt wearing pants was not a "womanly" thing to do, which was and is silly. So putting women in pants was a big sartorial step for the creators and writers. In addition, Counselor Troi was given a regular uniform which was a big step at the time when just a few years previously in the U.S. Army men and women had different uniforms. So pants = progress. What seems to be the issue is that now the "progressive" thing to do is to have males wear what has traditionally been considered female clothing, although such an idea ignores that men have been wearing flowing garments for a very long time.
So my contention is that the writers and creators of Star Trek have already shown that Starfleet is a progressive organization sartorially, and that inclusion of the skant won't change that. Therefore an author can choose to include the skant or not based on their opinion of the appearance of the skant itself and not be judged "sexist" if they decide not to have one of their male characters wear one.

Last edited by Jedi_Master; January 27 2014 at 09:22 PM. Reason: banana
Jedi_Master is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2014, 01:44 AM   #36
hbquikcomjamesl
Commander
 
hbquikcomjamesl's Avatar
 
Location: Orange County, CA
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

Jedi_Master wrote: View Post
With the notable exception of the kilt, the majority of unisex wrapped garments reach the feet, and with good reason.
One of the churches I attend (being pan-denominational, I bounce around among 5 different churches in 3 different denominations when I'm home) has a substantial Samoan congregation, and they generally worship in traditional Samoan attire. The male version of which is approximately the same length as a Scottish kilt.

At any rate, at age 51, I can say with some authority that Christopher is exactly right: I have WATCHED women's pants go from being barely-acceptable casual attire to being commonplace work and even formal dress attire. And I've seen the advent of the Utilikilt (tm) for men. And I've also seen at least one heterosexual man publicly advocate male dresses.
hbquikcomjamesl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2014, 01:53 AM   #37
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

Christopher wrote: View Post
I'm not saying it's important -- I'm saying just the opposite, that diversity in fashion should be accepted as something people have a right to practice and not argued about and objected to because it doesn't fit some narrow preconception about fashion or gender.
Anything that somebody has a right to wear, somebody else will have the right to point and laugh. Nothing is above criticism.

And to be brutally honest, I don't give a CRAP what real fashion will be like in 400 years' time. All any of us know is what things look like now, and the way I see it, the skant is as cringe-worthy as anything I've seen on that show.

hbquikcomjamesl wrote: View Post
I've also seen at least one heterosexual man publicly advocate male dresses.
Was it Eddie Izzard?
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

Last edited by Mr. Laser Beam; January 28 2014 at 03:39 AM.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2014, 03:36 AM   #38
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

Christopher wrote: View Post
Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Pants are unisex NOW. As any woman born prior to the 1960s would tell you, a woman in pants prior to that would have been considered quite scandalous and as unacceptable as a man in a dress.
Exactly. Just 60 years ago, a woman wearing pants would've been considered a transvestite. It's actually a sexist double standard that we today consider it perfectly acceptable for a woman to wear pants but ridicule the idea of a man wearing a skirt. I've always applauded the idea behind the skant; it was an attempt on Roddenberry and Theiss's part to reject that double standard, to say that it was just as acceptable in the future for a man to wear a "dress" as for a woman to wear pants. Maybe it would've worked better as off-duty attire than a uniform variant, but they already had the precedent of the miniskirted female uniforms of TOS.
Whut? By my math, 60 years ago = 1954. I wasn't born at that time, but my mother was. I've got photos of women on my mother's side of the family when they were wearing pants. I don't recall any scandalous family stories that any of them were considered "transvestites." Context does matter, of course. It's wildly impractical to wear a dress when working on a farm or out fishing or hunting.

Put that into the context of what women wear on the job. I recall an episode of Adam-12 where one of the female police officers had to get out of the car, kneel on the asphalt, and point her gun at the crook they were chasing. What had me flabbergasted was the fact that she was wearing a skirt. The only thing between her skin and the road was pantyhose. That's not the remotest bit practical, for reasons that include her ability to run and climb if she had to, plus it's no protection at all from whatever's on the road - rocks, gravel, etc.
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2014, 06:35 AM   #39
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
The monster maroons were fairly unisex except that they had a skirt option for women (not introduced until ST:V).
Nichelle Nichols requested one... and got it for ST III.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2014, 01:38 PM   #40
Gotham Central
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Chicago, IL
View Gotham Central's Twitter Profile
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Gotham Central wrote: View Post
The monster maroons were fairly unisex except that they had a skirt option for women (not introduced until ST:V).
Nichelle Nichols requested one... and got it for ST III.
But she did not wear a skirt in any of her scenes in ST:III or IV.
__________________
Well maybe I'm the faggot America.
I'm not a part of a redneck agenda.
Now everybody do the propaganda.
And sing along in the age of paranoia

Green Day
Gotham Central is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2014, 03:59 PM   #41
CorporalCaptain
Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Gotham Central wrote: View Post
The monster maroons were fairly unisex except that they had a skirt option for women (not introduced until ST:V).
Nichelle Nichols requested one... and got it for ST III.
But she did not wear a skirt in any of her scenes in ST:III or IV.
She's wearing a miniskirt in the transporter room scene. You can see it, when she walks up and sits down at the beginning of the scene.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2014, 10:18 PM   #42
hbquikcomjamesl
Commander
 
hbquikcomjamesl's Avatar
 
Location: Orange County, CA
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

Mr. Bennett, "Timewalker" does have a point: 60 years is a bit too recent. More like 75 years, because women wearing pants, at least as work attire, was accepted (by necessity) at least as far back as World War II and the "Rosie the Riveter" era. And with acceptance as factory-wear (and acceptance decades earlier as farm and ranch work-wear) inevitably came acceptance as fashion (albeit avant-garde fashion) attire.
hbquikcomjamesl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2014, 10:20 PM   #43
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
But she did not wear a skirt in any of her scenes in ST:III or IV.
Scene with Mr Adventure!
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 29 2014, 03:26 AM   #44
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

hbquikcomjamesl wrote: View Post
Mr. Bennett, "Timewalker" does have a point: 60 years is a bit too recent. More like 75 years, because women wearing pants, at least as work attire, was accepted (by necessity) at least as far back as World War II and the "Rosie the Riveter" era. And with acceptance as factory-wear (and acceptance decades earlier as farm and ranch work-wear) inevitably came acceptance as fashion (albeit avant-garde fashion) attire.
Yep. Does anyone here recall Katharine Hepburn wearing pants or slacks in some of her movies? Nobody called her a "transvestite."
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 30 2014, 11:29 AM   #45
Jarvisimo
Commander
 
Jarvisimo's Avatar
 
Re: The Skant in TrekLit

For an examination of trousers on women, there are many great books and articles on them. For you guys, on googlebooks why not have a look at the Epilogue on female trousers in Gayle Fischer's Pantaloons & Power: A Nineteenth-century Dress Reform in the United States. Also have a look at more wider books on fashion - Fashion, Culture and Identity, Fashion and Modernity (edited by the head of my school), and others on the net.
__________________
At the high point of our intimacy, we were just 0.01cm from each other. I knew nothing about her. Six hours later, she fell in love with another man.
Jarvisimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:55 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.