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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 25 2014, 06:54 PM   #196
Greg Cox
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
"metrosexual" . . . huh?
If you don't know what the word means, here's a definition: Metrosexual
Oh, I'm familiar with the term. I was just puzzled by its use in that context. I've seen a lot of criticisms, good and bad, directed at the new movies, but that they were too "metrosexual"?

That seemed to warrant a "huh?"
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Old January 25 2014, 07:32 PM   #197
Coal the Elf
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I didn't mind Nemesis upon second viewing recently. Didn't like it the first time though. Thought the makeup was cheap and some of the lighting bad. Second time, I still hold those views. But the acting makes up for it, and so does the script to a point. Yes it's a weak one, but at least it isn't full of nods that'll make one want to bash their head against a wall . And it's to the point.

After seeing Into Darkness, it made me appreciate all of the movies (even the weaker ones) that much more. Bottom line, it had heart, like previous entries in the series. And I respect that .
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Old January 25 2014, 10:01 PM   #198
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

One of my main problems with Nemesis was how, after killing Shinzon, Picard just sits there in a trance. We're supposed to believe that the Captain Picard we've been watching for so many years would be that effed up by killing a younger version of himself...who would have killed him if given the chance? In the second season episode Time Squared, Picard basically guns his future self down in cold blood and doesn't so much as blink. I think ol' Chief O'Brien showed more emotion. It was totally out of character and simply a plot device to set up Data being the one to save the day and get blown up.

Also...why the hell was Shinzon bald? And why did that old Academy shot of Picard that Beverly whips out show him being bald...we know for a fact that Picard hasn't *always* been bald. It's like they thought the audience was too stupid to imagine that this now-bald man once actually had hair and so would his younger clone.

I still think they should have just had Stewart play Shinzon and say he'd had some sort of accelerated aging done and that's why he's sick. The revenge would have made more sense: Picard got to live a full life while Shinzon got cheated due to the acceleration. Getting Picard's blood could have been what he needed to stop the acceleration.

I put this together a few years back to show how badass it could have been.
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Old January 25 2014, 10:40 PM   #199
sonak
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Flux Capacitor wrote: View Post
One of my main problems with Nemesis was how, after killing Shinzon, Picard just sits there in a trance. We're supposed to believe that the Captain Picard we've been watching for so many years would be that effed up by killing a younger version of himself...who would have killed him if given the chance? In the second season episode Time Squared, Picard basically guns his future self down in cold blood and doesn't so much as blink. I think ol' Chief O'Brien showed more emotion. It was totally out of character and simply a plot device to set up Data being the one to save the day and get blown up.

Also...why the hell was Shinzon bald? And why did that old Academy shot of Picard that Beverly whips out show him being bald...we know for a fact that Picard hasn't *always* been bald. It's like they thought the audience was too stupid to imagine that this now-bald man once actually had hair and so would his younger clone.

I still think they should have just had Stewart play Shinzon and say he'd had some sort of accelerated aging done and that's why he's sick. The revenge would have made more sense: Picard got to live a full life while Shinzon got cheated due to the acceleration. Getting Picard's blood could have been what he needed to stop the acceleration.

I put this together a few years back to show how badass it could have been.

agree on the "Picard just standing there after Shinzon dies" part. That scene irritates me every single time I watch it.
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Old January 26 2014, 05:28 AM   #200
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

sonak wrote: View Post
agree on the "Picard just standing there after Shinzon dies" part. That scene irritates me every single time I watch it.
I think they could have salvaged the bit where Picard stands there looking as if he's just been slapped with a fish if the movie had been smart enough to have Shinzon, fresh off being impaled by the Death Balustrade of Death, look down at his own chest and start laughing. It would've been a bit of a continuity wank but it would have made sense for the motif of Shinzon-as-alternate-Picard, and would have given Picard a particular reason to be shocked into passivity.
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Old January 26 2014, 05:54 AM   #201
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

^ That would certainly have made the scene better.
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Old January 26 2014, 07:58 AM   #202
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

And would have been all the more poignant if Shinzon had been played by Stewart. Hardy just didn't look enough (or sound enough) like Picard, bald or not to really sell it IMO. The funny thing is I think Hardy could probably pull it off now since he's 12 years older.
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Old January 26 2014, 08:02 AM   #203
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Flux Capacitor wrote: View Post
I put this together a few years back to show how badass it could have been.
I'll take your evil clone and raise you an old pop culture reference:



And yes, I believe even this could have been a better movie than Nemesis.
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Old January 26 2014, 08:08 AM   #204
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Haha, classic.
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Old January 26 2014, 02:44 PM   #205
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Runetouch wrote: View Post
Were they really that bad? Regarding why I haven't seen them yet, that's because after watching First Contact, I decided to start Deep Space 9, and currently am on Season 2.
They ain't very good.... Between the two of them, they manage to make the TNG movie series look like mostly crap in retrospect.

DS9 = Good. Stick with DS9.
Yes, I like DS9 a lot so far.
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Old January 27 2014, 12:12 AM   #206
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
"metrosexual" . . . huh?
If you don't know what the word means, here's a definition: Metrosexual
Oh, I'm familiar with the term. I was just puzzled by its use in that context. I've seen a lot of criticisms, good and bad, directed at the new movies, but that they were too "metrosexual"?

That seemed to warrant a "huh?"
Chalk that one up to homophobia and ageism against younger people for having a Star Trek they relate to vs. the older shows and movies, and also a slam against the newer movies.
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Old January 27 2014, 12:19 AM   #207
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Khan444 wrote: View Post
gottacook wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
...would it have killed them to at least name-drop Lore? They seem to be going out their way to ignore his existence.
What makes the most sense is that a Lore story was considered but then dropped in favor of "B-4" because Lore had been written originally by others, and the producers of Nemesis didn't want to share credit and/or didn't want to pay whatever amount may have been demanded for the rights to the character.

(The whole idea of a Soong android being detectable from such a distance is just weak. It makes about as much sense as the locals in "The Mark of Gideon" being able to construct a convincing 1:1 Enterprise scale model despite not even being Federation members, and despite the planet obviously being too crowded to build such a thing.)
I think that what he meant was that they mention Lore, not that he actually appear. They find another copy of Data, and are way too quick to trust him. They could have mentioned Lore as a justification for being suspicious of B-4. What was really stupid is that Shinzon, who has only days to live and needs Picard's blood, decides to put B-4 on a barren planet near the neutral zone and just kind of assumes that a. he'll be detected by Stafleet, and b. that the Enterprise will be the one to find him. Not only that, but the planet is full of hostile aliens with guns and Shinzon decides to scatter B-4 in pieces all over the place so that Picard has to spend most of the day driving around picking up the pieces while being shot at. So Shinzon wastes time that he doesn't have for no good reason and puts Picard in a situation where he could easily have been killed, at which point Shinzon would have been completely screwed. Like I said, Shinzon is the most idiotic movie villain in ST history.
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Finished the rewatch...the film is just a mess. As others have stated, so many missed opportunities.

Was B4 necessary to the plot at all? Seems like he easily could have been written out. Spiner is so busy playing B4 in this one that I feel like we're not getting enough of Data is his final appearance.

Also, it seems like the whole story could have been tighter. There are two separate parts of the film where Picard is on the Scimitar and Data goes after him. They could have tightened those beats into a single sequence. Have Data sacrifice himself saving Picard instead of stopping a contrived McGuffin.

I also wasn't fond of how the Enterprise and its allies flailed about helplessly fighting an overpowered uber-ship. If they wanted to ape TWOK, they should have paid more attention to the battle, which was more about matching wits with evenly-matched ships.
Amazing how fans now love this movie despite its flaws, but hate Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness for what they consider plot 'flaws'.
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Old January 27 2014, 12:58 AM   #208
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post

If you don't know what the word means, here's a definition: Metrosexual
Oh, I'm familiar with the term. I was just puzzled by its use in that context. I've seen a lot of criticisms, good and bad, directed at the new movies, but that they were too "metrosexual"?

That seemed to warrant a "huh?"
Chalk that one up to homophobia and ageism against younger people for having a Star Trek they relate to vs. the older shows and movies, and also a slam against the newer movies.
Ok, I'm gonna throw in another "Huh?" on this one. Call me dense, but I'm not getting the point.
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Old January 27 2014, 04:32 AM   #209
The Old Building & Loan
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Khan444 wrote: View Post
gottacook wrote: View Post

What makes the most sense is that a Lore story was considered but then dropped in favor of "B-4" because Lore had been written originally by others, and the producers of Nemesis didn't want to share credit and/or didn't want to pay whatever amount may have been demanded for the rights to the character.

(The whole idea of a Soong android being detectable from such a distance is just weak. It makes about as much sense as the locals in "The Mark of Gideon" being able to construct a convincing 1:1 Enterprise scale model despite not even being Federation members, and despite the planet obviously being too crowded to build such a thing.)
I think that what he meant was that they mention Lore, not that he actually appear. They find another copy of Data, and are way too quick to trust him. They could have mentioned Lore as a justification for being suspicious of B-4. What was really stupid is that Shinzon, who has only days to live and needs Picard's blood, decides to put B-4 on a barren planet near the neutral zone and just kind of assumes that a. he'll be detected by Stafleet, and b. that the Enterprise will be the one to find him. Not only that, but the planet is full of hostile aliens with guns and Shinzon decides to scatter B-4 in pieces all over the place so that Picard has to spend most of the day driving around picking up the pieces while being shot at. So Shinzon wastes time that he doesn't have for no good reason and puts Picard in a situation where he could easily have been killed, at which point Shinzon would have been completely screwed. Like I said, Shinzon is the most idiotic movie villain in ST history.
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Finished the rewatch...the film is just a mess. As others have stated, so many missed opportunities.

Was B4 necessary to the plot at all? Seems like he easily could have been written out. Spiner is so busy playing B4 in this one that I feel like we're not getting enough of Data is his final appearance.

Also, it seems like the whole story could have been tighter. There are two separate parts of the film where Picard is on the Scimitar and Data goes after him. They could have tightened those beats into a single sequence. Have Data sacrifice himself saving Picard instead of stopping a contrived McGuffin.

I also wasn't fond of how the Enterprise and its allies flailed about helplessly fighting an overpowered uber-ship. If they wanted to ape TWOK, they should have paid more attention to the battle, which was more about matching wits with evenly-matched ships.
Amazing how fans now love this movie despite its flaws, but hate Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness for what they consider plot 'flaws'.
Not sure who loves it, but hope you weren't saying that I do...don't know how you could have gotten that from my posts....
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Old January 27 2014, 06:36 AM   #210
Coal the Elf
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Khan444 wrote: View Post
gottacook wrote: View Post

What makes the most sense is that a Lore story was considered but then dropped in favor of "B-4" because Lore had been written originally by others, and the producers of Nemesis didn't want to share credit and/or didn't want to pay whatever amount may have been demanded for the rights to the character.

(The whole idea of a Soong android being detectable from such a distance is just weak. It makes about as much sense as the locals in "The Mark of Gideon" being able to construct a convincing 1:1 Enterprise scale model despite not even being Federation members, and despite the planet obviously being too crowded to build such a thing.)
I think that what he meant was that they mention Lore, not that he actually appear. They find another copy of Data, and are way too quick to trust him. They could have mentioned Lore as a justification for being suspicious of B-4. What was really stupid is that Shinzon, who has only days to live and needs Picard's blood, decides to put B-4 on a barren planet near the neutral zone and just kind of assumes that a. he'll be detected by Stafleet, and b. that the Enterprise will be the one to find him. Not only that, but the planet is full of hostile aliens with guns and Shinzon decides to scatter B-4 in pieces all over the place so that Picard has to spend most of the day driving around picking up the pieces while being shot at. So Shinzon wastes time that he doesn't have for no good reason and puts Picard in a situation where he could easily have been killed, at which point Shinzon would have been completely screwed. Like I said, Shinzon is the most idiotic movie villain in ST history.
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Finished the rewatch...the film is just a mess. As others have stated, so many missed opportunities.

Was B4 necessary to the plot at all? Seems like he easily could have been written out. Spiner is so busy playing B4 in this one that I feel like we're not getting enough of Data is his final appearance.

Also, it seems like the whole story could have been tighter. There are two separate parts of the film where Picard is on the Scimitar and Data goes after him. They could have tightened those beats into a single sequence. Have Data sacrifice himself saving Picard instead of stopping a contrived McGuffin.

I also wasn't fond of how the Enterprise and its allies flailed about helplessly fighting an overpowered uber-ship. If they wanted to ape TWOK, they should have paid more attention to the battle, which was more about matching wits with evenly-matched ships.
Amazing how fans now love this movie despite its flaws, but hate Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness for what they consider plot 'flaws'.
Into Darkness had more flaws imo than Nemesis. At least it wasn't a remake (a reverse one, granted with Into Darkness), along with acting that wasn't even good at all by a lot of the cast.

I still have Nemesis towards the bottom of the Trek films, but Into Darkness holds the bottom slot for me. Can't ever watch that one again.
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