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Old January 25 2014, 02:30 PM   #1
Romulan_spy
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Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

Interesting.

http://www.nature.com/news/stephen-h...-holes-1.14583
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Old January 25 2014, 03:17 PM   #2
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

Will he ask to get the money on his bet back now?
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Old January 26 2014, 11:26 AM   #3
Rhubarbodendron
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

[warning: anti-Einstein rant.]

That's a fascinating theory and I'm looking forward to the future discussions among the specialists.

Hawking tries to keep all current theories up and just dumping the idea of a wall-like, sharp-edged event horizon. That last step is something I completely agree with. Light, gravity, matter (atmospheres, for example) - everything in space appears to have fuzzy edges that gradually fade out into space. So why should the event horizon of a black hole be an exception?

But why not take it a step further? Why not for once assume that sacred prophet Einstein was wrong after all? For decades, Astronomers and Physicists have desperately been constructing new and winded theories only to not shatter Einstein's. But if we get rid of Einstein, the universe suddenly becomes very simple: no need for dark strings, firewalls, wormholes. There's just mass/gravity and energy/movement and their verious effects. And once we did that, even black holes suddenly make sense:
The jets that escape them are simply the energy and mass coming out on the other side. The firewall does not exist but the effects of the black hole are just getting more intense, gradually, the closer one gets to the center. That center being a tiny but super-heavy mass, it's logical that not 100% of all energy and matter that enter will escape. Some will get too close or even hit directly and be kept. And that also explains the energetic imbalance in space. We needn't bother with dark strings, they simply become corridors between a net of black holes where energy is being sucked into them without being able to escape.
We don't need to bother about anti-matter anymore either and we can stop wondering why we have never ever seen a matter/antimatter explosion though theoretically they should happen everywhere all the time. Without Einstein, the universe does swallow or simply lose energy because energy is no constant after all.

All problems of physics could be solved if only Hawking and his colleagues dared to overcome their loyalty to a long dead colleague. Having a life expectancy of another 25 years, I wonder, though, if I'll live to see that.
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Old January 26 2014, 12:15 PM   #4
Timelord Victorious
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

Excuse me, I am not familiar with everything Einstein has said it done, just the main gist of relativity, which is demonstrably correct.
What did he say, that you are dismissing here?
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Old January 26 2014, 12:23 PM   #5
YellowSubmarine
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
Why not for once assume that sacred prophet Einstein was wrong after all?
Because he ain't wrong.

But if we get rid of Einstein, the universe suddenly becomes very simple:
And very much inaccurate and not corresponding to the theories. The universe is not simple. It's a lot of things, simple is not one of them. How can something that supports intelligent life be simple?

Relativity actually simplifies things, because while it is more complicated to apply, you no longer exclaim "What the fuck! Why are all my results about Mercury's orbit off again!" and your results start making sense.

Plus, your calculations weren't simple to begin with. I was contemplating suicide when I got to calculating the effects of planets on each other (without any relativity). What exactly becomes simple? It makes you want to kill yourself doing it and you get the wrong result in the end?


no need for dark strings, firewalls, wormholes.
Uh? Who needs these? Apart from Star Trek fans that is... More importantly, what are these? Cause Einstein's theories certainly do not need dark strings (whatever that is supposed to mean).

There's just mass/gravity and energy/movement and their verious effects. And once we did that, even black holes suddenly make sense:
And your GPS stops working.

The firewall thing regarding the black holes was a prediction by quantum mechanics, not relativity. I didn't exactly get the mechanism that causes it, but apparently quantum mechanics rules out the existence of an event horizon of any kind without the occurrence of a firewall. Hence, to work out that problem with quantum mechanics, Hawking poses an alternative to the existence of an event horizon, that as far as I understand is still compatible with Relativity. Einstein is completely innocent in this case, so I am not sure your rant is even applicable to the story.

You know, the existence of an event horizon or apparent horizon also follows from direct observations of what gravity does to light, so even if you threw out Relativity (which be a pretty bizarre thing to do), these observations would still stand and imply a horizon. But blame Einstein if that suits you.
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Old January 26 2014, 12:27 PM   #6
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

Other physicists, if I read the article right, aren't even sure about Hawking's latest theory. I am not a scientist. I'm not even good at math. But it doesn't make a lot of sense, even to me, that the traditional view of Black Holes should be changed at all. Have not "they" been saying since Time Forgot, that "normal" physics do not apply to Black Holes, anyway?
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Old January 26 2014, 02:10 PM   #7
Rhubarbodendron
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

I warned you that I dislike Einstein. I can't get myself to trust the ideas of a man who was not even able to do the maths for his theories himself.
On the other hand, I rather like Hawking - particularly as he is so open-minded as to ignore a popular theory (the "firewall effect" as postulated by quantum mechanics). I'd just be happier if he'd ignore Einstein as well. After all E's famous formula is only a theory, not an axiom. It lacks proof and yet everyone treats it as if it were one of the 10 commandmends.

And indeed, the universe is not simple. Which is another reason why Einstein's formula is suspicious to me. It's just too smooth.

Timelord_Victorious wrote: View Post
Excuse me, I am not familiar with everything Einstein has said it done, just the main gist of relativity, which is demonstrably correct.
What did he say, that you are dismissing here?
I was referring to E = mc²
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Last edited by Rhubarbodendron; January 26 2014 at 02:24 PM.
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Old January 26 2014, 02:49 PM   #8
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
After all E's famous formula is only a theory, not an axiom.
That sentence is so wrong I don't know where to begin with.

Newton's laws of motion are axioms, which doesn't bring them any closer to being accurate depiction of the real world.

Also, 2 = 3 is an axiom (and one with very destructive consequences).
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Old January 26 2014, 04:33 PM   #9
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

This is not a new theory and he's been talking about this particular development of his thinking for at least a couple of decades. Also I thought it was frowned on for people to just start threads with a link without actually explaining why.
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Old January 26 2014, 04:58 PM   #10
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
I can't get myself to trust the ideas of a man who was not even able to do the maths for his theories himself.
You know, it's funny? I can't get myself to trust the opinions of someone who isn't even able to do a simple fact-check on common myths about Einstein and math.
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Old January 26 2014, 06:24 PM   #11
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
I was referring to E = mc²
Demonstrated everytime a nuclear bomb goes off.
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Old January 26 2014, 10:45 PM   #12
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
[warning: anti-Einstein rant.]
Urgh. That was so painful I am not ever going to read it again, either I would need to claw my own eyes out with a chalkboard shard.

Please don't talk about science. Like, ever again. Gah.
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Old January 26 2014, 10:46 PM   #13
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
But why not take it a step further? Why not for once assume that sacred prophet Einstein was wrong after all?
Probably because every time they try and to prove him wrong they just end up proving him right.
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Old January 26 2014, 11:39 PM   #14
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

BigJake wrote: View Post
Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
I can't get myself to trust the ideas of a man who was not even able to do the maths for his theories himself.
You know, it's funny? I can't get myself to trust the opinions of someone who isn't even able to do a simple fact-check on common myths about Einstein and math.
Another "beautiful theory...killed by an ugly fact."
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Old January 27 2014, 12:15 AM   #15
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Re: Stephen Hawking offers new theory of black holes

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Probably because every time they try and to prove him wrong they just end up proving him right.
That's cause they weren't really serious in disproving him. Fire up the spaceships, move all the stars and nebulas around so that gravitational lens effects are invisible, put planet thrusters on all fast-moving objects so they no longer suffer from apparent time dilation, put "Keep out! Construction zone!" on black holes, forbid twins from being born, lie on the specs of nukes and under-report their mass, then hire a guy to fix the clocks on aircraft and spacecraft. There, so much simpler.
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