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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old January 24 2014, 04:25 PM   #316
Hartzilla2007
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Are you suggesting that if a similar set of circumstances occurred in the Primeverse there would be a different outcome?

Interesting notion. Off the top of my head I don't see why things would have gone differently just by virtue of being in a different timeline, but it's possible that Starfleet regulations regarding the PD are different between the two timelines as well, or that Pike or his superiors would be different enough people to rule differently regarding Kirk.

I thought that whole bit about the PD in "Into Darkness" was a not-so-subtle slap at the whole "let them die!" nature of the TNG-era Prime Directive.


Maybe I'm reading too much into it, though.
I figure Starfleet Command would have been fine with Kirk saving the planet if he hadn't flown the Enterprise over them in plain view.

Heck even Spock kept saying they hadn't actually violated the Prime Directive until that happened.
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Old January 24 2014, 07:18 PM   #317
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Janeway (an admiral in Nemesis) apparently didn't suffer at the hands of starfleet command after Voyager flew over 1990's Los Angeles, potentually witnessed by far more than the few dozens of natives who saw the nu'prise in ST Twelve.

Prime Kirk only faced demotion in ST Four, after violoating orders. Never for breaching the prime directive, which according to Voyager he was on record doing many times.

So yes, I'm suggesting that the punishment that nuKirk experienced was unique to the alternate universe, and all things being equal Prime Kirk would not have suffered the same punishment, for the exact same actions and decisions.

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Old January 25 2014, 03:35 AM   #318
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Prime Kirk only faced demotion in ST Four, after violoating orders. Never for breaching the prime directive, which according to Voyager he was on record doing many times.
Well, the demotion was a both a way of disciplining Kirk for disobeying a direct order from the Starfleet Commander while rewarding him for saving Earth, a unusual situation that merited an equally unusual solution.

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Old January 25 2014, 06:35 AM   #319
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I figure Starfleet Command would have been fine with Kirk saving the planet if he hadn't flown the Enterprise over them in plain view.

Heck even Spock kept saying they hadn't actually violated the Prime Directive until that happened.
My sense from the film was that Kirk was demoted more for falsifying his reports about the incident than for whatever potential prime directive violation might have happened in flying the Enterprise over the Weekians.

Which, to me, seems fair: one can reasonably debate whether exposing a civilization to concepts far outside their experience incidentally to saving them from extinction is a worthwhile risk. Lying to the people who are to review and debate your actions is unacceptable for an organization of grownups.
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Old January 25 2014, 11:05 AM   #320
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

The thing about that (which makes no sense) is, if Kirk is going to basically lie in his report, and makes the assumption that Spock is also going to lie in his report (because Kirk saved his ass), doesn't it make sense that Kirk would think to sit down with Spock and get their stories straight?

Then change the ship's records (remember when Kirk and Sarek watched the recording of Spocks death in ST Three?), changing the records would likely involve the ship's top computer expert, Spock.

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Old January 25 2014, 04:57 PM   #321
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The thing about that (which makes no sense) is, if Kirk is going to basically lie in his report, and makes the assumption that Spock is also going to lie in his report (because Kirk saved his ass), doesn't it make sense that Kirk would think to sit down with Spock and get their stories straight?

Then change the ship's records (remember when Kirk and Sarek watched the recording of Spocks death in ST Three?), changing the records would likely involve the ship's top computer expert, Spock.


yeah it's a pretty stupid plot point, especially since Kirk would know that Spock isn't given to lying.
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Old January 25 2014, 05:53 PM   #322
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Maybe Kirk thought Pike was hip enough that he'd accept the falsified report and overlook the PD issues given that Kirk saved the people.

Oops.
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Old January 25 2014, 08:34 PM   #323
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Maybe Kirk thought Pike was hip enough that he'd accept the falsified report and overlook the PD issues given that Kirk saved the people.

Oops.

well he'd have actually had good reason to think that, considering all the rule-breaking in STXI Pike had overlooked(stowing on board, trying to mutiny, etc.) and had given him a promotion. But because in this movie Pike needs to "teach him a lesson," he reacts differently.
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Old January 25 2014, 08:59 PM   #324
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I can't seem to find a decent transcript of the movie, however, didn't Pike say something about there were senior people in Starfleet who thought that Kirk had been promoted too quickly?

Pike's decision might have taken into account the position of others in Starfleet Command who also read the two conflicting reports. Pike was part of the chain of command, his decisions didn't exist in isolation.

(and why doesn't chakoteya.net have a transcript, it's been nearly a year?)

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Old January 25 2014, 11:46 PM   #325
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post

(and why doesn't chakoteya.net have a transcript, it's been nearly a year?)
Might not be much love for the Abrams films there. They used to have the 2009 transcript but its been pulled.

From the website:

You will not find the JJ Abrams version of Star Trek on this site. Sorry, but I just don't like it.
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Old January 26 2014, 12:25 AM   #326
Hartzilla2007
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Maybe Kirk thought Pike was hip enough that he'd accept the falsified report and overlook the PD issues given that Kirk saved the people.

Oops.

well he'd have actually had good reason to think that, considering all the rule-breaking in STXI Pike had overlooked(stowing on board, trying to mutiny, etc.) and had given him a promotion. But because in this movie Pike needs to "teach him a lesson," he reacts differently.
Actually it wasn't Pike that demoted Kirk, Starfleet held some kinf of tribunal Pike wasn't allowed at where they decided to demote Kirk.

Pike just got Marcus to bust Kirk down to first officer instead of all the way back to the academy.
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Old January 26 2014, 12:30 AM   #327
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Maybe Kirk thought Pike was hip enough that he'd accept the falsified report and overlook the PD issues given that Kirk saved the people.

Oops.

well he'd have actually had good reason to think that, considering all the rule-breaking in STXI Pike had overlooked(stowing on board, trying to mutiny, etc.) and had given him a promotion. But because in this movie Pike needs to "teach him a lesson," he reacts differently.
Actually it wasn't Pike that demoted Kirk, Starfleet held some kinf of tribunal Pike wasn't allowed at where they decided to demote Kirk.

Pike just got Marcus to bust Kirk down to first officer instead of all the way back to the academy.

ah right, faulty memory. I've only seen the film twice so far.
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Old January 26 2014, 01:24 AM   #328
Hober Mallow
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Can we stop talking about that crappy movie "Into Darkness" when we're supposed to be talking about that other crappy movie "Insurrection?"

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Old January 26 2014, 01:46 AM   #329
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I'm curious.

How many people who hate Insurrection paid to see it multiple times in the theater? How many bought it on VHS? DVD? Blu Ray? How many have bought it on all formats?

I ask because if someone hated the movie so much, why spend all that money on it? To complete a collection? To be able to complain about the details on this BBS?

Just asking, no agenda.
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Old January 26 2014, 02:03 AM   #330
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I picked up the Collector's Edition DVD for cheap and my Blu-ray was part of the TNG movie collection.
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