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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 24 2014, 06:06 PM   #16
Ryan8bit
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Since photon torpedoes can either blow up a ship or open up a temporal rift, depending on the episode, I'm not really seeing the problem here. Or, are you one of the fans I've yet to run across who hates Yesterday's Enterprise?
That's not even remotely the same.

And it has nothing to do with liking or disliking it. I like the new movies, but I don't make up excuses for flaws in the story. Especially those that seem inconsistent.
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Old January 24 2014, 06:18 PM   #17
CorporalCaptain
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Since photon torpedoes can either blow up a ship or open up a temporal rift, depending on the episode, I'm not really seeing the problem here. Or, are you one of the fans I've yet to run across who hates Yesterday's Enterprise?
That's not even remotely the same.
Sure, magic science that's plot driven, rather than driven by natural laws, and that does different things depending upon the needs of the story, that isn't even remotely the same.

Getting back to the climax of STXI: The fact that we could see a special effect similar to the time warp that threw the Narada and the Jellyfish back, as opposed to something like Vulcan imploding, that told us all we needed to know. That phenomenon that the Narada was falling into and that almost caught the Enterprise was actualizing in a way more like the time warp than the planet killer.
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Old January 24 2014, 06:39 PM   #18
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Sure, magic science that's plot driven, rather than driven by natural laws, and that does different things depending upon the needs of the story, that isn't even remotely the same.
This isn't about science or natural laws, it's about consistency in your own established universe. "Yesterday's Enterprise" is a terrible example because there is no inconsistency. Yes, aspects of the technology can have multiple purposes, but they deliberately left it vague. Picard even says that the exchange of fire may have acted as a catalyst, which is still just him throwing out a theory because they don't know.

That's a long ways away from a space anomaly that crushes things if inside them, but you can send you back in time if you enter it. Oh, but the one that was made inside the ship could still cause time travel. There are certainly examples of inconsistencies with treknology in the past, but "Yesterday's Enterprise" isn't one of them.

Getting back to the climax of STXI: The fact that we could see a special effect similar to the time warp that threw the Narada and the Jellyfish back, as opposed to something like Vulcan imploding, that told us all we needed to know.
Not that visuals have ever been the most reliable, but all that points to is that there is an inconsistency.
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Old January 24 2014, 06:46 PM   #19
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Seems just as consistent as it always was.

The very word "anomaly" means something mysterious and unexplained. Those happened all the time in TV Trek.

By definition, you can't say there is internal consistency when what they call anomalies occurred. That is to say, every time an anomaly occurred, they discovered that what they thought were the rules no longer applied. That happened regularly.

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Old January 24 2014, 06:57 PM   #20
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
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the film does a piss-poor job of telling us why Kirk decides to flat-out murder Nero and his crew. It's a clear symptom of the writers strike and the filmmakers have mentioned more than once that they would have gone back to tweak that scene, if they could.
Ah, thank you for the info. Do you remember a link to some interview? I'd love to read it. I understand the purpose of the scene and what they were trying to do, but yeah, I agree they actually didn't a very good job of it. The first time I saw the scene, I cringed. It got better on following views, but it's still a bit jarring.
I'm fairly certain it was on a podcast with Orci, but I can't find it now.
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Old January 24 2014, 06:58 PM   #21
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

I always felt cheated when Kirk ordered all weapons to be fired on the Narada. Kirk actually wants to help, telling Spock that he figured this all out logically (Even though we never established that we weren't at peace with Romulus), yet Spock isn't down with that. And this is the actual end to Spock's development ark. He decides that he doesn't want to follow logic and instead chooses to murder Nero and his crew while they're defenseless and on the brink of destruction!
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Old January 24 2014, 07:55 PM   #22
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I always felt cheated when Kirk ordered all weapons to be fired on the Narada. Kirk actually wants to help, telling Spock that he figured this all out logically (Even though we never established that we weren't at peace with Romulus), yet Spock isn't down with that. And this is the actual end to Spock's development ark. He decides that he doesn't want to follow logic and instead chooses to murder Nero and his crew while they're defenseless and on the brink of destruction!
The scene is problematic, no question, but it's hardly the end of Spock's 'ark' (sic).

We see him struggling with a death wish after he lost his homeworld, his mother and his mentor, only to emerge stronger thanks to his burgeoning bromance with Kirk. It was fascinating to see how Spock would react to these extreme circumstances and it was a bold choice to show him be more vulnerable and emotional as a consequence to those events. This new Spock is more volatile and must work even harder to keep his human half in check.
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Old January 24 2014, 08:18 PM   #23
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
By definition, you can't say there is internal consistency when what they call anomalies occurred. That is to say, every time an anomaly occurred, they discovered that what they thought were the rules no longer applied. That happened regularly.
That's not at all the same kind of rules/consistency as I was talking about earlier.
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Old January 24 2014, 11:10 PM   #24
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

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iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Ah, thank you for the info. Do you remember a link to some interview?
I'm fairly certain it was on a podcast with Orci, but I can't find it now.
It's ok, thanks anyway.
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Old January 25 2014, 01:02 AM   #25
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

[QUOTE=The Stig;9163048]
BillJ wrote: View Post

As for STiD, that film is dripping with moral lessons and does a damn sight better at dealing with 'the issues' than many installments of oldTrek. There are faults of plotting in STiD but its moral compass is pointing in exactly the right direction.
It was right up until it wasn't and that was when Spock spares Khan not out of Vulcan respect for life, not out of Starfleet or Federation respect for the rule of law, not out of disgust at the wild savage he had reverted to but out of the emotionally resonant but ultimately selfish desire to bring Kirk back from the dead. That's why I said the magic blood reveal should have been saved until after Spock and Uhura take Khan into custody.

In "Spectre of the Gun," Kirk declined to blow away Wyatt Earp after Earp gunned down Chekov and he did it in the name of civilization and decency, not a plot contrivance.
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Old January 25 2014, 03:39 AM   #26
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
By definition, you can't say there is internal consistency when what they call anomalies occurred. That is to say, every time an anomaly occurred, they discovered that what they thought were the rules no longer applied. That happened regularly.
That's not at all the same kind of rules/consistency as I was talking about earlier.
Well, I don't know what you're seeing in red matter, that makes, say, proto-matter so much more well-behaved, by comparison. Or, are the two on the same plane of believability to you, as they are to me?

Anyway, a planet like Vulcan is much, much bigger than the Narada. For all we know, what went on in the center of Vulcan is exactly the same maelstrom effect that we saw at the beginning and end of the film, but just inside the planet. For all we know, pieces of Vulcan got ejected from white holes all across space and time.
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Old January 25 2014, 03:55 AM   #27
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

it doesn't really have one at all, it's basically just action sci-fi (shoot teh villains and beat them with cool special effects and dat)

the morality of such films is non existent sadly, but just take them as what they are and don't expect it and you can still enjoy them to an extent.
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Old January 25 2014, 03:57 AM   #28
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
I want to preface this by saying I really like the last two Trek movies--they are in the the 3 and 4 slots after TMP and TWoK. And, while I don't view them as anything other than complete reboots, with more in common with the off-Trek of my childhood--the Gold Key Comics, the Peter Pan story records--I don't find any of the elements that depart from TOS to be a potential deal-breaker. Any but one, that is.

In Star Trek, when Nero has been defeated and the Narada crippled, Kirk offers assistance, just as he would in TOS. Nero, for obvious reasons, tells him to go fuck himself. So far, so good--Mark Lenard's Romulan Commander did pretty much the same in "Balance of Terror," though he was much more gentlemanly about it. But then, with the Narada not firing off a single weapon, Kirk unloads on her, sticking around just long enough to get caught in the red matter black hole's gravity well.

Uh, no. Not only did it make Kirk look petty and vicious (and I've heard the argument that Kirk couldn't risk letting even a wounded Narada pop out somewhere in the past; be nice if he or Spock said as much), it dropped the chance for a much better dramatic moment: Kirk makes his offer, Nero refuses then locks a tractor beam or--better still--shoots harpoons trailing chains of rilistrongium alloy into Enterprise. Kirk's fussilade would then have been an act of self defense. He could even have echoed his alterna-self's line from the last time we saw an adversary opt for attempted murder-suicide rather than accept help as he wearily mutters, "Nero, I've had enough of you."

Into Darkness has the same problem. Spock, pushed past his breaking point, is clearly trying to murder Khan, not apprehend him. That makes sense, actually, and it's a reminder of the pre-Surakian savagery that lurks in all Vulcans, not just he half-human ones. It also underscores just how deep his brotherly love for Kirk runs and just how fragile watching his mother and his home planet die has left him, a year or so on. And then, before he can take it too far and cross a line he would have a tough time living with himself for crossing, Uhura stops him. Again, so far so good.

But her rationale? "He's our only chance to save Kirk!" (And why couldn't any of the other superpopsicles--products of the same gene manipulation and selective breeding--have done the same?) Pretty selfish, you ask me. How about: "Spock, stop! This is not you! This isn't Vulcan! This isn't your mother, it isn't Kirk!" Dramatically, I'd have saved the miracle blood reveal until after they had Khan in custody.

This stuff really bugs me. If our heroes are moral only until it affects them personally, they fail to be heroes, like their TOS counterparts. Heroes do the right hings for the right reasons. If I want selfish, brutal killers as protagonists, I'll watch The Sopranos or Breaking Bad (and I did and do watch them--they are two of my favorite shows; The Sopranos vies with TOS for my all-time favorite). I expect better of Kirk and Spock and I expect better of those writing for them.
All good points...

Except that I'm pretty sure Khan exhausted their supply of moral enlightenment when he took over the Vengeance and tried to kill them all. This, after Kirk and crew had risked their lives coming down to apprehend him and make him stand trial instead of assassinating him outright, after they put themselves in harms way to serve justice instead of petty revenge. If there was any shred of forgiveness left on the Enterprise after Kirk died, Khan smashed it to a pulp when he intentionally crashed the Vengeance into San Francisco.
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Old January 25 2014, 04:02 AM   #29
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

Rory1080p wrote: View Post
it doesn't really have one at all, it's basically just action sci-fi (shoot teh villains and beat them with cool special effects and dat)

the morality of such films is non existent sadly, but just take them as what they are and don't expect it and you can still enjoy them to an extent.
It's funny when people take their own lack of analysis and insight as a proof of the movies's faults.

Say what you will about its quality (there is no accounting for taste), but you can't ignore it tackles very current issues like the lawfulness of preemptive strikes, drone warfare, state-sponsored terrorism, etc.
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Old January 25 2014, 04:41 AM   #30
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Re: NuTrek's Faulty Moral Compass

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Rory1080p wrote: View Post
it doesn't really have one at all, it's basically just action sci-fi (shoot teh villains and beat them with cool special effects and dat)

the morality of such films is non existent sadly, but just take them as what they are and don't expect it and you can still enjoy them to an extent.
It's funny when people take their own lack of analysis and insight as a proof of the movies's faults.

Say what you will about its quality (there is no accounting for taste), but you can't ignore it tackles very current issues like the lawfulness of preemptive strikes, drone warfare, state-sponsored terrorism, etc.
as opposed to your analysis which is clearly that of someone who did a degree in the film? arrogance does not equate superiority my friend.

like I said I think the films are good if you take them in their own right, but within Trek? they just aren't anything like as deep or meaningful to me, maybe it's because I grew up with the original Trek and TNG, but it just doesn't make me think or feel in the same way when I watch the new films, as action sci-fi? they are among the best out there for sure. thats just the thing though, they don't really tackle those issues, the issues are there yes but there is no in depth discussion about them, no exploration of what they mean, no wider debate within the film about them being right or wrong...in old Trek films and series there would have been, for me that's the key difference, the older Trek would go deeper, it would explore issues not just have them there to give reason to the special effects, the new films are more about the action and are very light on the deeper meanings of the issues at play.

you are entitled to disagree of course, but this is how I feel about the new films, like I said taking them for what they are they are great, but as what sci-fi does at its best or what Trek is about? they can't hold a candle to the older stuff.
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