RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,250
Posts: 5,348,760
Members: 24,613
Currently online: 590
Newest member: Chairslinger

TrekToday headlines

MicroWarriors Releases Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Ships Of The Line Design Contest
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Next Weekend: Shore Leave 36!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

True Trek History To Be Penned
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Insight Editions Announces Three Trek Books For 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

To Be Takei Review by Spencer Blohm
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Mulgrew: Playing Red
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Hallmark 2015 Trek Ornaments
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Funko Mini Spock
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

IDW Publishing Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 24 2014, 04:45 AM   #31
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Fascinating thread. You learn something new all the time.

Not to derail the thread, but I'm just wondering if there are any similar letters or memos indicating the time period in which the series is set. Something like, "I noticed a mistake in 'Space Seed' setting STAR TREK in the 22nd Century when we recently decided the show was set in the 23rd Century; no need to change anything, just be aware for future episodes."
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 05:01 AM   #32
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Not to derail the thread, but I'm just wondering if there are any similar letters or memos indicating the time period in which the series is set. Something like, "I noticed a mistake in 'Space Seed' setting STAR TREK in the 22nd Century when we recently decided the show was set in the 23rd Century; no need to change anything, just be aware for future episodes."
The time frame of the series was kept intentionally vague, since they didn't want to make any firm assumptions about the rate of technological progress. That's why they invented the deliberate gibberish of stardates. But mostly the estimates did tend to hover around 2-300 years in the future, with "The Squire of Gothos" being the one outlier (placing the series in at least the early 28th century, since Trelane was 900 light-years from Earth and aware of things from the early 19th century).

However, the second-season writers' guide (the only one I have a copy of) does mention that the time frame is "actually about two hundred years from now." I wouldn't be surprised if that was added to the revised guide based on what "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and "Space Seed" had established.

I believe the earliest reference to ST being in the 23rd century was probably in The Making of Star Trek.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 05:02 AM   #33
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

As has been pointed out on the board several times, this "misconception" regarding the use of the arrowhead in TMP (that Starfleet honored the achievements of Kirk's Enterprise) was propagated in widely circulated publicity material that was disseminated from Paramount itself. Therin of Andor has some references in his collection, IIRC.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 05:11 AM   #34
J.T.B.
Commodore
 
J.T.B.'s Avatar
 
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Why can't they have a little competition? What's disrespectful about it?
Because it would pick one "winner" and imply the rest were "losers," would bad for the morale of all but one unit, and create needless divisiveness in an organization that should be unified.

Every seven years or so one starship will turn out to have accomplished the most. Disappointed it's not the insignia of your ship? Double your efforts and next time your starship may turn out to be the one honored?
There would never be an objective way to judge who had "accomplished the most." It is simplistic to think that complex organizations performing demanding and widely varied tasks should be reduced to the level of a popularity contest.


Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Seriously, since when has it become "disrespectful" or whatever you wanna call it not to acknowledge and/or reward accomplishment?

Do I have to assume that it was disrespectful of Kirk to display his achievements on his chest?
You're talking about two completely different things. Established awards that are available to anyone whose accomplishments meet the criteria are not the same as eliminating an insignia in which its wearers could take pride because it is suddenly judged not worthy.

Besides the practical question: If, say, Enterprise "won the contest" and every ship wore its insignia for seven years, the achievements judged for the next "award period" would have been accomplished by personnel wearing that insignia, so if a different ship "won," what would the next badge be?
J.T.B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 05:15 AM   #35
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I believe the earliest reference to ST being in the 23rd century was probably in The Making of Star Trek.
Thanks, Christopher. Does the book mention any source for that date?
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 05:22 AM   #36
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I believe the earliest reference to ST being in the 23rd century was probably in The Making of Star Trek.
Thanks, Christopher. Does the book mention any source for that date?
I think co-authored by Gene Roddenberry basically covers that. Of course, if it's not in all caps, Roddenberry could have claimed he never said it, so....
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 05:30 AM   #37
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

TMoST was based on a lot of behind-the-scenes memos, notes, and discussions with the production staff. However, some of it may have been "Whitfield's" (Poe's) interpretation or distillation of the ideas. In any case, TMoST was the Trek reference book in the early years of the show, so it's quite possible that it influenced the later decision in the movies to lock the time frame down as the 23rd century. Which would mean it was itself the original source.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 12:12 PM   #38
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: shore leave in La Baule, France
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Awarding individual achievements is fine. Having the entire fleet adopt just one ship's individual insignia is implicitly saying that one ship and crew are the only ones that matter.
Of course, not the entire fleet as demonstrated by the still individual insignias of Constellation and Exeter, but possibly Starfleet personnel ranging from base to destroyer personnel (e.g. "Court Martial" officers in Starbase club).

I assume Starfleet to have some kind of starship flagship, too.
For whatever reasons the Starfleet board of admirality convenes to select a starship as flagship and adopt that starship's insignia for its (non-starship) uniforms for the next years is up to our imagination.

We could assume that Starfleet really liked how Captain Christopher Pike handled critical situations and conducted first contacts. Starfleet would like to see other starship captains to take his example as an inspiration because it reflects the policy Starfleet has in mind for the upcoming years.
Adopting an individual ship's insignia as a visual sign for this policy doesn't seem to be a weird concept, IMHO.
Further, it could be completely out of control of a starship's captain (which would take some steam out of the "disrespectful competition" debate).

Let's say Starfleet would like to see a more straightforward approach for the next years as displayed by Captain ... of he Starship... - that's the insignia chosen. Starfleet would like to see a more cautious approach as displayed by Captain ... of the Starship ... - then that's the insignia chosen.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Besides, it's fannish. It undermines the reality of the fictional world by superimposing our perception of the Enterprise as the center of all things.
That's not true. From what we can rationalize it could look like this:
  • delta insignia of Enterprise under Captain Pike prior to events in TOS (being phased out by the time of "Court-Martial" and "The Menagerie" and being replaced by)
  • flower insignia of Lexington under Captain Wesley (promoted to Commodore by the time of "The Ultimate Computer")
  • delta insignia of (Kirk) Enterprise combined with circle insignia of unknown starship by the time of TMP
  • delta insignia of (Spock?) Enterprise combined with rectangular insignia of unknown starship by the time of TWOK.
So there'd be an equal balance between Enterprise and other starship's "accomplishments"

Christopher wrote: View Post
And of course, as we now know, it was based on a misconception. That's the crux of it: The belief that the arrowhead was unique to the Enterprise prior to TMP was simply wrong, as "Court-martial" proves. It was always meant to be fleetwide, and there's now plenty of canonical evidence affirming that it was in fleetwide use long before TOS. So there's no sense debating the legitimacy of an idea that we know is conclusively wrong.
There is no evidence in "Court-Martial" that Kirk's former classmates were serving on starships. For all we know they are still serving on the same destroyer Kirk once had been assigned to during the "Vulcanian expedition" and are jealous and envious that Kirk moved on and now even commands his own starship (and they have to wear that starship's insignia but are not part of its crew). Admittedly frustrating for them.

Let's talk about the essential issue we have here: Bob Justman was approaching the uniform's insignia from a budget-saving (and "in-universe"?) point of view and there's nothing wrong with it (actually I sympathize with his approach). However, when it came to shooting "The Doomsday Machine" and "The Omega Glory" the other producers apparently decided it would be better to go for individual starship insignias.

I can see a practical motivation for this move: TV viewers which might have gotten late into a particular episode, would have instantly noticed that the guy Spock was arguing with in "The Doomsday Machine" was not a member of the Enterprise crew, neither was the guy in "The Ultimate Computer" or the guy in "The Omega Glory".
Of course, this limited a director's shooting option when placing the extras' bodies in "The Omega Glory" and "The Tholian Web" (and possible something Bob Justman was concerned about, too).

(When it comes to the delta insignia Bob Justman is the saint of TOS continuity and canon, but when he explicitly says that the other starships belong to the "Enterprise Starship Class" he is not? Interesting, who wants cake and eat it, too? )

Besides, the "fleetwide" basic symbol of Starfleet is not the delta, but the arrowhead, featured in many facilities of Starfleet onscreen and on the hull of the Enterprise and the TAS ships.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein

Last edited by Robert Comsol; January 24 2014 at 02:51 PM. Reason: additional Justman justifications
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 02:43 PM   #39
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: shore leave in La Baule, France
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I believe the earliest reference to ST being in the 23rd century was probably in The Making of Star Trek.
Yes, sort of. Here is the actual Roddenberry quote:

"In the beginning, I invented the term "star date" simply to keep from typing ourselves down to 2265 A.D., or should it be 2312 A.D.?"

Yet, several TOS dates clearly indicated 200 years from "now" (production time of TOS) which TMP somehow overwrote with Decker's "300 years ago" remark concerning the launch date of Voyager 6 in TMP (of course, Decker's memory could have been flawed).

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 03:14 PM   #40
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: Way back of nowhere
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Perhaps it is not the Enterprise that is 'special'. It has the same insignia as most Starships.
Perhaps the reason that Wesley's, Decker's and Tracey's ships have different insignia indicates that they are the special ships.
Wesley and Decker were Commodores and maybe their ships were more important than those commanded by lowly Captains.
As for Tracey's ship - I'm thinking maybe it was the flagship at the time. Not the Enterprise
CommishSleer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 03:41 PM   #41
Kirk here
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Location: Arkansas
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

I love talking about Star Trek as much as the next guy, but it never ceases to amaze me what convolutions ST fans will go through to explain a continuity error.
__________________
The taxpayers of Wisconsin support Wisconsin's public workers.
Kirk here is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 03:48 PM   #42
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

Kirk here wrote: View Post
I love talking about Star Trek as much as the next guy, but it never ceases to amaze me what convolutions ST fans will go through to explain a continuity error.
That's really interesting, but this isn't your average continuity error. Whatever this is, error or retcon, it crosses multiple episodes. As discrepancies go, this is one of the whoppers.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 04:38 PM   #43
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Perhaps it is not the Enterprise that is 'special'. It has the same insignia as most Starships.
Perhaps the reason that Wesley's, Decker's and Tracey's ships have different insignia indicates that they are the special ships.
Wesley and Decker were Commodores and maybe their ships were more important than those commanded by lowly Captains.
As for Tracey's ship - I'm thinking maybe it was the flagship at the time. Not the Enterprise
My assumption in the Rise of the Federation novels is that the Federation Starfleet was originally a looser merger of the founder worlds' space services, analogous to the European Space Agency today. Over time, the fleet became more integrated, but the distinct branches endured as administrative subdivisions of the fleet through at least the 2260s, since we did hear Kirk refer to the Enterprise as a UESPA vessel on a couple of occasions. As shown in my uniform design sketch, the various insignias we saw in TOS represent these various organizational divisions. The arrowhead, as we know from "Friendship One" and the ENT enlisted rating patches, is in fact the UESPA insignia from the 2060s onward. In my scheme, UESPA was in charge of the fleet's exploratory efforts. I used the Constellation patch as the logo of the Andorian Guard (since it looks a bit like Andorian script), which was originally primarily responsible for military and defense operations; perhaps the Constellation was assigned to patrol and defense duties rather than exploratory duties, and thus was under that branch of the administration. I used the Exeter insignia for Alpha Centauri's space agency, which was a secondary research/exploration arm; originally it probably provided more just funding and resources than ships, but by the 23rd century it may endure as a distinct subfleet. And I used the Antares insignia, which Justman's memo says was intended to represent the merchant marine, for the Tellarite space service, which I gave responsibility for operational support and supply. (Plus it looks kind of like a hoof.)

Or it could be that the fleet was reorganized at some point and the old insignias have been reassigned to the new subdivisions -- maybe they just represent the First Fleet, Second Fleet, Third Fleet, something like that.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 04:48 PM   #44
USS Excelsior
Commodore
 
USS Excelsior's Avatar
 
Location: Alpha Quadrant
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

The ENT setup of having one patch for Starfleet, and another for the ship they're on worked out quite well.
USS Excelsior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 05:44 PM   #45
CrazyMatt
Commander
 
CrazyMatt's Avatar
 
Location: Paradise
Re: Starfleet Starship Insignia was all supposed to be the same?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I liked the idea of different ships having different insignias.
YES! Too bad Bob Justman ruined for me all these years later!
__________________
"You are speaking to a senior officer, Kirk!"
CrazyMatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:21 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.