RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,185
Posts: 5,436,097
Members: 24,947
Currently online: 616
Newest member: CaptainJaymez

TrekToday headlines

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 23 2014, 06:23 AM   #286
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Another way to have dealt with the issue, not perfect but it could have worked, is have the reavel towards the end that either the particles won't/can't work when they're harvested, the effect only works on the planet/the influence of the planet and you reverse to your original state once you leave the influence, or that Ruafo was pulling a fast one and the collector is actually a WMD the whole time and he couldn't give a shit about anything other than nuking the planet.
Of course if they don't find out only the collector goes that could be a surprisingly dark ending to a Star Trek movie which would also show some surprising cojones on the film makers part.

Of course this would probably have then been something that would work on a tv series so they could do explore the ramifications of the Federation unintentionally helping to commit genocide.

Because let's face it wouldn't be something that could just be dumped on a rouge group the Federation would have to deal with having just fried an entire planet of innocent people especially if the rest of the quadrant found out about it.

Might have actually made for some interesting TV.
You can still do the happy ending:

Pick up from the "they're the same race" reveal, then have Ruafo flip his lid and lets it slip that his plan all along was to nuke the Baku from orbit and never cared about the rings, and you button up with the same last minute battle on the collector ending with it's destruction.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
"I've made many mistakes, and it's about time that I did something about that." The Doctor (Deep Breath)
| Blog | Homepage |
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 11:09 AM   #287
Shaka Zulu
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bulawayo Military Krral
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm not sure who Acadians are, so it's difficult for me to respond to that, but as I noted earlier, in an age of replicators, transporters, holodecks, etc. I see little point in placing too much emphasis on "home", especially if by moving you can do a whole bunch of other people a world of good...no pun intended.

Okay, this is who the Acadians were, and this is the reason that they were expelled from their land.
Shaka Zulu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 02:14 PM   #288
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm not sure who Acadians are, so it's difficult for me to respond to that, but as I noted earlier, in an age of replicators, transporters, holodecks, etc. I see little point in placing too much emphasis on "home", especially if by moving you can do a whole bunch of other people a world of good...no pun intended.

Okay, this is who the Acadians were, and this is the reason that they were expelled from their land.
I really think people are stretching when they try to compare the relocation of the Ba'ku with the above or the "Trail of Tears".
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 03:38 PM   #289
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Another way to have dealt with the issue, not perfect but it could have worked, is have the reavel towards the end that either the particles won't/can't work when they're harvested, the effect only works on the planet/the influence of the planet and you reverse to your original state once you leave the influence, or that Ruafo was pulling a fast one and the collector is actually a WMD the whole time and he couldn't give a shit about anything other than nuking the planet.
Of course if they don't find out only the collector goes that could be a surprisingly dark ending to a Star Trek movie which would also show some surprising cojones on the film makers part.

Of course this would probably have then been something that would work on a tv series so they could do explore the ramifications of the Federation unintentionally helping to commit genocide.

Because let's face it wouldn't be something that could just be dumped on a rouge group the Federation would have to deal with having just fried an entire planet of innocent people especially if the rest of the quadrant found out about it.

Might have actually made for some interesting TV.
You can still do the happy ending:

Pick up from the "they're the same race" reveal, then have Ruafo flip his lid and lets it slip that his plan all along was to nuke the Baku from orbit and never cared about the rings, and you button up with the same last minute battle on the collector ending with it's destruction.
True though it would be nice if Picard pointed out that this thing could have been avoided if Dougherty had listened to him and bothered to check things out before rushing into trying to harvest the particles with technology they barely understand.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 03:59 PM   #290
dub
Fleet Captain
 
dub's Avatar
 
Location: Location? What is this?
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I am completely in awe that any thread about "Insurrection" has gone 20 pages. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it. It was just okay. I know that's just my opinion. Carry on with your passion. :-D
dub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 04:32 PM   #291
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm not sure who Acadians are, so it's difficult for me to respond to that, but as I noted earlier, in an age of replicators, transporters, holodecks, etc. I see little point in placing too much emphasis on "home", especially if by moving you can do a whole bunch of other people a world of good...no pun intended.

Okay, this is who the Acadians were, and this is the reason that they were expelled from their land.
I really think people are stretching when they try to compare the relocation of the Ba'ku with the above or the "Trail of Tears".
Agreed.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 05:48 PM   #292
Armored Saint
Fleet Captain
 
Armored Saint's Avatar
 
Location: Quebec City
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm not sure who Acadians are, so it's difficult for me to respond to that, but as I noted earlier, in an age of replicators, transporters, holodecks, etc. I see little point in placing too much emphasis on "home", especially if by moving you can do a whole bunch of other people a world of good...no pun intended.

Okay, this is who the Acadians were, and this is the reason that they were expelled from their land.
I really think people are stretching when they try to compare the relocation of the Ba'ku with the above or the "Trail of Tears".
Picard's indignation was motivated by forced relocations that happened in human history. It was an example of this kind of events.

in an age of replicators, transporters, holodecks, etc. I see little point in placing too much emphasis on "home", especially if by moving you can do a whole bunch of other people a world of good...no pun intended.
Despite all artificial stuff provided by technology, 24th century people seems to still care about having some roots. Why else would the Picard family have continued to make wine and taking car of ancestral vineyards?
Armored Saint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 06:30 PM   #293
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm not sure who Acadians are, so it's difficult for me to respond to that, but as I noted earlier, in an age of replicators, transporters, holodecks, etc. I see little point in placing too much emphasis on "home", especially if by moving you can do a whole bunch of other people a world of good...no pun intended.

agreed


It's also why I didn't sympathized much with the Maquis "cause." What's the big deal about a specific planet as home if you live in a techno-utopia like the Federation?
Yeah, how dare those people expect the federation not to be complete morons who negotiate a treaty with someone and let them get away with using it as toilet paper while probably laughing at them the whole time because checking to make sure the other guys are actually obeying the damned treaty

I mean seriously if the Federation didn't even notice a freaking shooting war in the DMZ just what the hell is Starfleet doing around the Federation/Cardassian playing with their thumbs.

Sheesh whats next removing the outposts along the Romulan Neutral Zone, turning off all their planetary defense systems, or maybe ignoring the next Borg Cube that shows up.

I'm not sure what any of that had to do with my point. My point was that relocation for a decent reason should be no big deal in the Trek future we are presented with. The shooting war came after the colonists were already told that they'd be on their own if they decided to stay, so that's hardly a surprise when they were presented with the risks.
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 07:24 PM   #294
Elvira
Vice Admiral
 
Elvira's Avatar
 
Location: t'girl
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
[] The shooting war came after the colonists were already told that they'd be on their own if they decided to stay, so that's hardly a surprise when they were presented with the risks.
The treaty might have stood a much better chance of being up held if the colonist had left the area the treaty stipulated they would.

From what we know of the treaty, did it mention treatment of colonist who refused to leave and agreed to remain (of their own free will) on a Cardassian territorial planet?

The cardassian where apparently staying away from the planets and colonies in the federation after the treaty went into effect.

The colonist wouldn't have had trouble with the Cardassians if they had simply left Cardassian space.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
And aliens would give a rats ass about human morality why exactly?
So they could "better themselves," and help others, just like we do.

And they would help them why exactly?
Why for a share of the particles in orbit of a federation planet of course.

The TNG crew and Janeway not looking any younger in Nemesis ...
Janeway looked wonderful.

Oh so the Ba'ku not sharing the particles is bad but the federation not sharing them is good
Question, is distributing the particles for the well being of a trillion people exactly the same as 600 people selfishly keeping the very knowledge of those particles to themselves?

Answer, no.

Actually, it would be easy to see the federation employing the particles as a important trade item outside the federation, in addition to helping people within the federation.

Really hard to imagine the Baku doing the same.

__________________
.
no mere mortal can resist the evil of the thriller
Elvira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 07:31 PM   #295
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
Despite all artificial stuff provided by technology, 24th century people seems to still care about having some roots. Why else would the Picard family have continued to make wine and taking car of ancestral vineyards?
And yet, perhaps paradoxically, I don't see Picard locking & loading to protect his precious vineyards if letting them be burned to the ground would medically benefit a few million people.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 08:47 PM   #296
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Armored Saint wrote: View Post
Despite all artificial stuff provided by technology, 24th century people seems to still care about having some roots. Why else would the Picard family have continued to make wine and taking car of ancestral vineyards?
And yet, perhaps paradoxically, I don't see Picard locking & loading to protect his precious vineyards if letting them be burned to the ground would medically benefit a few million people.

Depends if there were a hot middle-aged woman involved who was urging him to stand his ground and fight.
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 08:53 PM   #297
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
Picard's indignation was motivated by forced relocations that happened in human history. It was an example of this kind of events.
Picard was indignant because Anij lit a fire in his pants. Tough to score on a booty call if you have an eviction notice in your hand.

Picard didn't care about the Boraalans in "Homeward, nor did he care about the native Americans in "Journey's End". Either passively or aggressively, the Federation gained in both of those situations.

Did the Federation handle the situation poorly? Of course they did. Not because they wanted to move the Ba'ku but because they didn't offer the Ba'ku a seat at the table to discuss their options. Like in most situations involving non-members or primitive societies, the Federation decided what the best course of action for a society was without their input.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 09:13 PM   #298
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Like in most situations involving non-members or primitive societies, the Federation decided what the best course of action for a society was without their input.
Which in this case is the sort of imperialistic bulls@#t the Prime Directive was supposed to put a stop to.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 09:24 PM   #299
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Like in most situations involving non-members or primitive societies, the Federation decided what the best course of action for a society was without their input.
Which in this case is the sort of imperialistic bulls@#t the Prime Directive was supposed to put a stop to.
Problem is, that once more than one party is involved the Prime Directive isn't worth the paper its written on. (See: "A Private Little War")

Once the S'ona opened up to the Federation about the existence of the planet and the Meta-phasic radiation, it's only a matter of time before other parties become interested. Then there is the fact that the S'ona have just as much of a claim to the planet as the Ba'ku. If the S'ona want to scorch the surface of the planet while the Ba'ku are still there, technically the Federation doesn't really have a say as that is an internal matter between the two parties that are of the same race.

In practice, moving the Ba'ku was really the best outcome all parties could hope for. Including the Ba'ku.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 23 2014, 09:29 PM   #300
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Like in most situations involving non-members or primitive societies, the Federation decided what the best course of action for a society was without their input.
Which in this case is the sort of imperialistic bulls@#t the Prime Directive was supposed to put a stop to.
Trek seems to treat the PD as a suggestion more than a hard and fast rule. We hear a lot about it's the highest law a starship Captain must obey, but right and left it gets violated and tossed in the trash for the sake of the story.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
"I've made many mistakes, and it's about time that I did something about that." The Doctor (Deep Breath)
| Blog | Homepage |
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:09 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.