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Old January 23 2014, 03:27 AM   #196
Set Harth
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

There's also the whole desert planet thing, and a few other vague connections. ( I'm thinking of a long post I saw on another site a few years ago. )

And if you want to take it to ROTJ: Jabba, perhaps more so in the concept art stage, bears a similarity to a certain character from the Dune mythos...
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Old January 23 2014, 03:29 AM   #197
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

The original DUNE movie had alot of trouble bringing the book to the screen, because STAR WARS took so many ideas from it ...
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Old January 23 2014, 03:39 AM   #198
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
I still don't know where all this DUNE stuff is going. Spice? Okay. Maybe. But the word spice and spices' collective value as a traded commodity goes back many centuries here on Earth, so it may have had nothing to do with Frank Herbert. At all.

Remember, Lucas immersed himself in history and mythology and I don't think we can just say that Han dumping a spice shipment meant for Jabba is any proof that DUNE is directly referenced. If it was, fine. Cool. But....where's the evidence, though? And does it matter?
Frank Herbert made a list of the comparisons between ANH and Dune and there was talk of a law suit but it was all dropped.
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Old January 23 2014, 03:45 AM   #199
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
The original DUNE movie had alot of trouble bringing the book to the screen, because STAR WARS took so many ideas from it ...
No.

The original Dune movie crashed and burned long before Star Wars because studios weren't interested. The subsequent Lynch-directed Dune, like so many other subsequent space adventures (BSG, for example) gets made because of Star Wars.

Besides, one could also say Lucas ripped off Asimov's Foundation and Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress, as well as Buck Rogers and half-a-dozen other influences. The fact is, Lucas' creation is a truly unique amalgamation of pre-70s pop culture and classic mythic archetypes.
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Old January 23 2014, 03:56 AM   #200
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

It's hard to write off the similarities to Hidden Fortress or Jack Kirby's New Gods as mere coincidence.
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Old January 23 2014, 04:00 AM   #201
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

Lucas and others involved with the original film have more or less admitted that Hidden Fortress was a major influence on ANH, right down to the two droids being stand-ins for the two Japanese villagers who served as travel companions and comic relief in the Kurosawa film. Lucas embraced Kurosawa's influences and style.
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Old January 23 2014, 04:03 AM   #202
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
It's hard to write off the similarities to Hidden Fortress or Jack Kirby's New Gods as mere coincidence.
Of course not - ditto for the others I mentioned. They were all influences. Some moreseo than others. The end result is still a combination of those influences unlike what anyone had seen before. That's the key point.

ETA:
I'm amused (and enjoying) how the conversation has shifted from a critical discussion of the prequels, to a critical discussion of the original film and the saga as a whole.
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Old January 23 2014, 04:20 AM   #203
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
I still don't know where all this DUNE stuff is going. Spice? Okay. Maybe. But the word spice and spices' collective value as a traded commodity goes back many centuries here on Earth, so it may have had nothing to do with Frank Herbert. At all.
Psst. Hey. Do you want to buy some really good oregano?

Remember, Lucas immersed himself in history and mythology and I don't think we can just say that Han dumping a spice shipment meant for Jabba is any proof that DUNE is directly referenced. If it was, fine. Cool. But....where's the evidence, though? And does it matter?
Oh, it's probably an allusion or, if you prefer, a reference. Given all the other apparent shout-outs, the odds that something so prominent in Dune isn't being shouted-out to are kinda low.

As to what all the nods are, you've got: a desert planet, Dune Sea is a pretty clear wink, the Tusken Raiders and their desert wear that collects moisture, that giant snakelike skeleton in the desert as already mentioned, the word spice, and maybe a couple of other minor tidbits like seeker droids (cf hunter-seekers).

You put it all together, and it's like, OK this is crafted to appeal to people who've read Dune. That's the bottom line.

You could say the same thing about it being crafted to appeal to people who like Star Trek. You've deflectors, tractor beams, Federations (in the PT), etc.

Or Flash Gordon. You've got scrolling prologues in perspective, space Emperors, maidens in space in peril, etc.

Sorry to those who think otherwise, but these aren't rip-offs.

Here's a nice little bit from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_made_..._a_popular_hit, FWIW:

Star Wars is an intentional pastiche of nostalgiac references to 1940s and 1950s pop culture (especially old movie serials) and especially Flash Gordon, as well as an homage to the cinema of American westerns, and the films of Kurosawa, John Ford, etc. , among others. This self-conscious nostalgic pastiche in Star Wars (story lines, themes, etc.) is perhaps misunderstood by the minority who saw Star Wars as not citational but plagiaristic. Clearly, however, its nostalgic elements resonated with older audiences who recognized the themes and formulas that George Lucas was playing with, even as younger audiences were exposed to these often for the first time. Star Wars in many ways started the trend toward "retro" in movies--not merely remaking old movies, but mixing and matching retro elements into something new and different.
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Old January 23 2014, 04:26 AM   #204
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

That better be pure, uncut oregano or I'll callin' the space cops.

Star Wars took a little bit from so many sources dating back to the legends and archetypes of ancient Greece that yeah, DUNE is probably likely given the examples you mentioned. SW is hardly original in any way shape or form except in the ways it took classic weaponry and other references and gave them a sophisticated, technologically-advanced sci-fi/fantasy twist. In the end a lightsaber is just a really, really badass and original concept of a traditional warrior's sword.

But there's nothing wrong with being unoriginal so long as the movie or TV show is profoundly entertaining and has a lasting, positive impact, and SW definitely did both of those in spades.
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Old January 23 2014, 04:28 AM   #205
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

^^ That's a good (and better) summation of what I was trying to convey: Namely that Star Wars really was the result of taking a lot of influences and throwing them into a blender - even if the speed was set low enough to be able to distinguish the ingredients after the fact, it was still a unique and enjoyable mix.
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Old January 23 2014, 04:47 AM   #206
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

cooleddie74 wrote: View Post
Much of the Lucas universe derives from ancient myth and archetypes more than modern literature such as Dune or sci-fi such as 2001 and Star Trek, though I'm certain that one and fairly sure at least two of those had profound influence on the crafting of the SW universe and the characters.

Lucas was more about Joseph Campbell and the ancient Greek writers than he was Frank Herbert.
You know, I know this is the line Lucas became fond of trotting out -- certainly I remember reading a lot about Joseph Campbell in early promo for the prequels -- but I think Steven Hart was 100% correct to point out back in the day that this is bantha poodoo. Lucas' universe owes its substance to the Lensmen and to Barsoom and to 30s serials. (Not to mention to Leigh Brackett.)

It's mainly possible to map Joseph Campbell's notions of archetypes onto it because Campbell is a hugely overrated bullshitter whose criteria for seeing resemblances between the myths out of which he builds his "archetypes" amount to "I say so." (I'm not kidding: the brave should try struggling through his The Masks of God: Primitive Mythology sometime.)
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Old January 23 2014, 04:58 AM   #207
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

All 4 volumes of The Masks of God were assigned reading in my college class.

( Volume II, Oriental Mythology is especially relevant to the Taoist underpinnings of Lucas' concept of the Force. )

to point out back in the day that this is bantha poodoo.
Of course, back in the day "bantha poodoo" meant bantha fodder, a substance that players of the video game Knights of the Old Republic should remember...

CorporalCaptain wrote:
You could say the same thing about it being crafted to appeal to people who like Star Trek. You've deflectors, tractor beams, Federations (in the PT), etc.
Obi-Wan having a Spock-in-The Immunity Syndrome moment when entering Alderaan local space...

Gary Mitchell doing stuff that would later be done by Vader and Palpatine... et cetera...
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Old January 23 2014, 05:00 AM   #208
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Of course, back in the day "bantha poodoo" meant bantha fodder, a substance that players of the video game Knights of the Old Republic should remember...
Touche.

(I'm not remembering the reference in KOTOR, but it's been a while...)
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Old January 23 2014, 05:04 AM   #209
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

BigJake wrote: View Post
It's mainly possible to map Joseph Campbell's notions of archetypes onto it because Campbell is a hugely overrated bullshitter whose criteria for seeing resemblances between the myths out of which he builds his "archetypes" amount to "I say so." (I'm not kidding: the brave should try struggling through his The Masks of God: Primitive Mythology sometime.)
Try reading Campbell's The Mythic Image. He produces more evidence than, simply, "I say so."

And I'll definitely give The Masks of God a read.
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Old January 23 2014, 01:29 PM   #210
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Re: Question to those most disappointed with the SW prequels

I'm pretty impressed to learn that Frank Herbert evidently invented the idea of a desert planet.
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