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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 12 2014, 01:27 PM   #481
NightJim
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

30 Days
Aha, the demotion of Mr Paris. Didn't remember a single thing from this episode other than that. Coincidentally, I also happen to be reading the Long Earth by Pratchett and Stephenson at the minute and the chapter I was at was about a totally water planet. But anyway nice episode. Good to see a someone butting up against

Counterpoint
Where Voyager reminds us that it doesn't work very well in binge watching. Following up an episode of Paris getting in trouble for breaking the Prime Directive we have Janeway completely ignoring it. I realise they're breaking it in totally different ways, but it just doesn't work this close together. Even a one episode in between would improve things.

Oh, and I know there's a thread called "Why is Janeway sexy?" which I haven't ventured into for fear of spoilers, but this episode should be Exhibit A. Mulgrew turns up the smouldering up to 11. That scene with the scientist alone is evidence enough.

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I loved this episode. The Doctor has a mental breakdown.
Janeway's old prejudice about the Doctor rears its head without her realising, and chooses to wipe the problem from his memory, and Seven steps up as a commentator on equal opportunities. My own issue would be I find it hard to believe Kes would allow the Doctor to just have his mindwiped, but then again she might see it more as 'repairing' then Seven does.

But this episode also solidified my thinking that I've started hitting the point that everything is Janeway and Seven (with the Doctor in there too) related at some point.

I'd noticed it a few times already, but it really hit home when Tuvok walked into the holodeck to relieve Janeway and made a comment about the Doctor's logic. I first expected a conversation between the Doctor and Tuvok about the logic of picking Harry over Ensign ThrowawayHotness, but instead he gets sent away, and then I realised it's been a while since Tuvok really got anything to do. The same could be said for some of others. Amusingly enough Chakotay may be one that was given more than others, alongside Paris.

Oh and Wang is really phoning it in now. But I know that's a problem with his work ethic rather than being pissed at nothing to do.
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Old January 12 2014, 09:52 PM   #482
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Bride of Chaotica

Well that was... interesting. I can see the idea. Comedy episode, tongues firmly in cheeks. It almost pulls it off. The one problem is it just goes on too long. The cast seem to be having fun though.
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Old January 13 2014, 12:55 AM   #483
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

"yes ma'am, his army of evil"

Which was once upon am time my signature here.
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Old January 13 2014, 01:06 PM   #484
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Seriously. It is a lot of fun, I was chuckling along for most of it. Just at about half an hour, the joke was done, and the last fifteen minutes were a little torturous.
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Old January 19 2014, 04:41 PM   #485
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Gravity.

Soon as I saw the woman in the desert with her face covered I thought "Oh God Lori Petty. I vaguely remember this now". The finer details were gone, but the broad strokes came back to me as I watched. Anyway, not a bad Tuvok episode. Not a great one either. But nice to see him getting an outing. In fact Seven and Janeway barely do anything here.
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Old January 20 2014, 04:15 AM   #486
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Counterpoint
Where Voyager reminds us that it doesn't work very well in binge watching. Following up an episode of Paris getting in trouble for breaking the Prime Directive we have Janeway completely ignoring it. I realise they're breaking it in totally different ways, but it just doesn't work this close together. Even a one episode in between would improve things.
If the people she's transporting ask for sanctuary, is Janeway still breaking the PD?
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Old January 20 2014, 10:46 AM   #487
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

... now you've made me question it. I thought it was specifically said in the episode. Anyway, this is the equivalent of going through Romulan space and picking up refugees. By understanding is that you're not allowed to interfere in the internal politics. It might not be the PD though.
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Old January 20 2014, 08:07 PM   #488
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

The innacuately reffered to "non-interference policy" mentioned in TNG Redemption, was sited as why the Federation could not become involved in the Klingon Civil War, because "It was an entirely internal matter" but the argument stands is that (this is what is really called) policy of non-interference is just a desciption of a hefty chunk of Prime Directive which in it's totality covers a lot of ground that was irrelevant to the Klingon Civil War.

WORF: Captain, we must intervene. The Duras family is corrupt and hungry for power with no sense of honour or loyalty. They represent a grave threat to the security of the Federation. Captain, you and I know that they have conspired with Romulans in the past. If they should be victors in this war, they will surely form a new Klingon-Romulan alliance. That would represent a fundamental shift of power in this quadrant. Starfleet must support Gowron. It is in the interests of both the Federation and the Empire. I beg you, support us in our cause.
PICARD: Mister Worf, I don't have to lecture you on the principle of non interference. As Starfleet officers, we have all sworn an oath to uphold that principle whatever our personal feelings. I'm sorry. I must refuse your request.
and...

GOWRON: By right and tradition, I am the sole leader. All who oppose me are traitors.
PICARD: I understand your position, but I', sure you're aware that the Federation cannot interfere in what is, by definition, an internal Klingon affair.
GOWRON: You arbitrated the Rite of Succession. You are already involved.
PICARD: My duties in that regard are finished.
"Principle" is a weird word to use for a regulation in the Star Fleet Rule Book. Also note that Picard was allowed to interfere in a Klingon/Romulan war, so the non interference policy only extends to the goings on of one planet or one species and what they get up to on their own time, and how they evolve as a culture on their own time table, which does sound a hell of a lot like the prime directive if it accounts for after the invention of warp drive WHICH IT DOES.

"Sigh"

Just because some one asks for Sanctuary, a Star Ship Captain doesn't have to give Sanctuary (I think that priests do, no matter what.) wich is why Janeway had that trial for Quinn in Deathwish.
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Old January 21 2014, 05:09 AM   #489
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

I thought she grated him sanctuary which is why the trial was on Voyager and not in the Continnium? I thought the trail was just to show Quinn was suffering and had the right to take his own life?

NightJim wrote: View Post
... now you've made me question it. I thought it was specifically said in the episode. Anyway, this is the equivalent of going through Romulan space and picking up refugees. By understanding is that you're not allowed to interfere in the internal politics. It might not be the PD though.
I was also thinking about what you said about Paris in "30 Days".
Wasn't part of the reason he got demoted was due to the fact if his plan failed, he would have destroyed an entire ecosystem of a planet?
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Old January 21 2014, 08:11 AM   #490
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

She couldn't grant sanctuary until he proved that being forced to live was an intolerable cruelty, and they wouldn't let him die until he was granted sanctuary.

Tom fired heavy yield weapons at a power station. That's just a stupid idea, and it didn't matter how safe he played it, there was always a chance he could have destroyed the ecosystem slightly faster than it was already being destroyed by the power station.

Imagine if Iran got on it's high horse and decided that irresponsible America was no longer allowed to use Nuclear Power because, even when it's used correctly it's grossly irresponsibly damaging to the planet?

How exactly do you think Iran would be thanked for systematically removing all the American Nuclear Power stations for the national grid by force?

No, I'm serious, if Iran can't suggest that other countries also be denied Nuclear Power, then the world is just picking on Iran.

No one likes a bully.



This is so the non interference policy which might be the Prime Directive.

Paris turns his agitation to the captain. "We can't just let this go!"

"What do you want me to do?" Janeway asks, softly-that "someone's about to die" softness, like when a rattlesnake stops rattling just before it strikes.

Paris snorts with disgust. "Of course. The almighty Prime Directive," he scoffs.

Uh oh.

"Would you please excuse us, Lieutenant?" Janeway says. It's not a request. Torres leaves, with a farewell to Tom. "I'll see you later." The door closes.

Janeway rises from her seat, and stands nose-to-chin with her conn officer. Her voice is dangerously even, excruciatingly soft. "I know you're upset, Lieutenant, but when you're in a room with me you check that attitude at the door. Understood?" Tom tries to interrupt, but he's no match for her. "We can't expect an entire society to change because we think they should."
But this episode did seem to be about the Prime Directive and it did apply to a post warp culture which happens all the time in Voyager.
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Old January 21 2014, 03:45 PM   #491
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

exodus wrote: View Post
I thought she grated him sanctuary which is why the trial was on Voyager and not in the Continnium? I thought the trail was just to show Quinn was suffering and had the right to take his own life?

NightJim wrote: View Post
... now you've made me question it. I thought it was specifically said in the episode. Anyway, this is the equivalent of going through Romulan space and picking up refugees. By understanding is that you're not allowed to interfere in the internal politics. It might not be the PD though.
I was also thinking about what you said about Paris in "30 Days".
Wasn't part of the reason he got demoted was due to the fact if his plan failed, he would have destroyed an entire ecosystem of a planet?
Yeah, Janeway directly says that it's because he disobeyed a direct order as well as breaching the PD. The possible plan failing was never really mentioned. As guy said, Janeway states they've given their advice, it's up to the aliens to follow it or not. The Government has said no, so Voyager can't get involved.

Which is pretty much why I think that the following episode is so contradictory to what she just did to Paris. The ruling class have told her to not get involved, but she's ferrying refugees anyway. It's "Do as I say, not as I do".
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Old January 22 2014, 03:01 AM   #492
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

NightJim wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
I thought she grated him sanctuary which is why the trial was on Voyager and not in the Continnium? I thought the trail was just to show Quinn was suffering and had the right to take his own life?

NightJim wrote: View Post
... now you've made me question it. I thought it was specifically said in the episode. Anyway, this is the equivalent of going through Romulan space and picking up refugees. By understanding is that you're not allowed to interfere in the internal politics. It might not be the PD though.
I was also thinking about what you said about Paris in "30 Days".
Wasn't part of the reason he got demoted was due to the fact if his plan failed, he would have destroyed an entire ecosystem of a planet?
Yeah, Janeway directly says that it's because he disobeyed a direct order as well as breaching the PD. The possible plan failing was never really mentioned. As guy said, Janeway states they've given their advice, it's up to the aliens to follow it or not. The Government has said no, so Voyager can't get involved.

Which is pretty much why I think that the following episode is so contradictory to what she just did to Paris. The ruling class have told her to not get involved, but she's ferrying refugees anyway. It's "Do as I say, not as I do".
Well yeah, that's part of being Captain.
Paris is just an Officer, he isn't supposed to go behind the Captains back and disobey an order.
I don't see it as a contradiction due to who's in charge and who isn't.
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Old January 22 2014, 04:01 AM   #493
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Tuvok disobeyed her and got a promotion 6 months later.
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Old January 22 2014, 06:06 AM   #494
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

6 months later
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Old January 22 2014, 06:12 AM   #495
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Revulsion was at the beginning of season 4?

Wow, it feels much earlier than that.

Prime Factors is exactly where I thought it was though.
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