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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 13 2014, 11:50 AM   #16
Lance
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

Agenda wrote: View Post
To be consistent with the Prime Directive, Spock should've been pissed (not literally) that they were helping at all. He should've insisted that the Enterprise just sit in orbit and watch the volcano go kablooey.
Well maybe he DID. We just didn't actually see that conversation take place. Maybe he did put all this forward, but his opinion was over-ruled by Kirk's decision to go down there and help people.

I mean, we know for a fact Scotty had reservations about certain aspects of the plan too (even if he might have sided with Kirk about the actual sentiment of saving lives). But his opinion is just an opinion, he isn't the Captain. Neither is Spock.

Ultimately, the chain of command on a starship is an autocracy. It's Kirk's call what they do, no matter what Spock (or anyone else) says. If there's a post-mortem of the decision process, that's up to the brass at home, to decide whether Kirk made the right decision retrospectively, and to praise or punish him accordingly.

This is true of TOS itself as much as it is the JJ films.
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Old January 13 2014, 12:58 PM   #17
Robert Comsol
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
In TOS the Enterprise tried to divert an asteroid that was headed towards Mirimanee's planet. So the PD isn't against stopping natural disasters. (at least in the 23rd Century)
Agreed, but Spock violated the PD the moment they beamed down and scared off the Native Americans to save Kirk.

Bob

P.S. The above scene was from "The Paradise Syndrome" which should have been obvious looking at the screencap I linked to...
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Old January 13 2014, 01:05 PM   #18
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

What film did you watch? Kirk stole a religious relic (while disguised in a robe and hood), luring the locals out of their temple, which was in the Volcano's immanent danger zone. He and McCoy escaped without help.
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Old January 13 2014, 06:31 PM   #19
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Agenda wrote: View Post
But the truth is, the crew broke the Prime Directive the moment they decided to screw around with the volcano at all.
And Kirk got chewed out and demoted because of it. Seems pretty consistent with canon to me.

As for Spock's attitude, in TOS Spock didn't follow a strict and rigid definition of the Prime Directive, and showed a willingness to bend it on occasion, or at least go along with Kirk when he chose to interpret the Directive his way. Obviously saving the tribe from a volcano is deemed an acceptable bending to Spock, provided it can be done without the natives being aware of it.
This. Spock didn't have any qualms with it as long as no one got caught. When the jig was up, he was willing to die rather than have the Enterprise revealed to the natives in an effort to save him.

The thing I don't think has been discussed in all this time (or I've forgotten if it has) is what Spock would've entered into his log if things had happened as planned. Would he (and Kirk) have gotten into trouble with Starfleet if Spock reported that they detonated a cold fusion device in a volcano about to destroy a planet with intelligent life, but they never revealed themselves to the natives?

Did they get in trouble for what they did, or what went wrong with what they were trying to do that led to the natives seeing the Enterprise?
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Old January 13 2014, 06:40 PM   #20
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

Given that the entire Enterprise crew went along with the plan to save the natives, it doesn't seem like saving them, in and of itself, was a violation of the PD. It was recklessly revealing the ship to the natives in an effort to save Spock that got them in trouble. Spock clearly didn't have a lot of qualms about undertaking the mission in the first place, so long as the natives never found out.
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Old January 20 2014, 05:10 AM   #21
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

I was under the impression that Kirk's lie on the report was the problem. The fact that this indicated to Pike and the other admirals --but mostly Pike I suspect--that Kirk was not responsible enough to own his command decisions and that perhaps his command crew did not work well together. They needed more experience. The fact that both Kirk and Spock were still going to serve in a command crew position indicates to me that it was felt they needed some training but were thought capable officers.
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Old January 20 2014, 10:43 AM   #22
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

The start of the film is filled with massive plot holes and problems.

The gross violation of the PD is a biggy though. On that day, those people were meant to die in a volcano, by altering those events the crew have chaged fate. They decided to play god and have no clue what their actions will result in. The PD isn't just a suggestion for behaviour, it is Regulation #1 for all Starfleet personnel.

Add to that the need for a starship to be underwater, even though every other cultural study undertaken by a Trek crew has been done safely from orbit.

Then you have NuUhura throwing a strop and arguing with her boyfriend (not to mention superior officer) in the middle of their 'mission', at a time when professionalism would be key.
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Old January 20 2014, 12:18 PM   #23
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
The start of the film is filled with massive plot holes and problems.

The gross violation of the PD is a biggy though. On that day, those people were meant to die in a volcano, by altering those events the crew have chaged fate. They decided to play god and have no clue what their actions will result in. The PD isn't just a suggestion for behaviour, it is Regulation #1 for all Starfleet personnel.
They know exactly what their actions will result in. Those people who were going to die, are now going to live. Obviously, the better option in every way.
Add to that the need for a starship to be underwater, even though every other cultural study undertaken by a Trek crew has been done safely from orbit.
To keep their activities from Starfleet's long-range sensor arrays?
Then you have NuUhura throwing a strop and arguing with her boyfriend (not to mention superior officer) in the middle of their 'mission', at a time when professionalism would be key.
She wished him luck and kissed him on the cheek.
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Old January 20 2014, 02:28 PM   #24
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

Agenda wrote: View Post
It's like in that TNG episode Pen Pals. Picard was firm that helping the planet would break the PD. He only allowed it when it became clear that Data's pal was asking for help. But in this movie, the natives weren't asking for anybody's help.
Well, we could assume that the natives on the volcano planet were praying and hence asking for help from a higher power... and their prayers were heard.
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Old January 20 2014, 06:35 PM   #25
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post

The gross violation of the PD is a biggy though. On that day, those people were meant to die in a volcano, by altering those events the crew have chaged fate. They decided to play god and have no clue what their actions will result in. The PD isn't just a suggestion for behaviour, it is Regulation #1 for all Starfleet personnel.
My God! This is such non-sense.

Doctors change fate every single day. If you contract cancer, should they just turn their back on you and tell you you're fated to die? I have an incredibly tough time respecting a person who suggests its better to allow an entire species to die instead of helping them.

At the end of the day, Kirk's interference will have little or no impact on the Niburu. As the species evolves, the encounter will be chalked up to native superstition. Just like it would've simply been better to beam Palmer up in "Who Watches the Watchers" and allow Leto to believe in the "Picard". Stories would be told but would've fallen out of the spotlight as the culture evolved.

The Prime Directive had never, ever been used as an excuse to watch entire species die until TNG.
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Old January 20 2014, 06:46 PM   #26
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

Gsam wrote: View Post
I was under the impression that Kirk's lie on the report was the problem. The fact that this indicated to Pike and the other admirals --but mostly Pike I suspect--that Kirk was not responsible enough to own his command decisions and that perhaps his command crew did not work well together. They needed more experience. The fact that both Kirk and Spock were still going to serve in a command crew position indicates to me that it was felt they needed some training but were thought capable officers.
There were a couple of issues.

1) Spock and Kirk decided, together, that the Prime Directive would be suitable preserved if the native population of Nibiru did not see the Enterprise, her crew or any support vessels. They enacted a plan based on that interpretation of the PD. The plan went ary and Kirk decided to break cover to save Spock and expose the Enterprise to the native population.

2) Spock filed a report detailing what happened on Nibru. Kirk filed a report filled with damn dirty lies.

Even if the plan succeeded, Kirk would have still run afoul of Pike because Spock's report would have been about the successful preservation of life on Nibiru while preserving the PD (from his POV.) Kirk would have still filed a report filled with damn dirty lies and Pike would have still had the same reaction he had on screen.

Pike didn't agree with Kirk and Spock's interpretation of the PD, full stop. That the plan failed and Kirk was forced to expose the Nibirans to the Enterprise is beside the point.
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Old January 20 2014, 06:52 PM   #27
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

The Stig wrote: View Post
Pike didn't agree with Kirk and Spock's interpretation of the PD, full stop. That the plan failed and Kirk was forced to expose the Nibirans to the Enterprise is beside the point.
I'm not so sure.

Pike is already riled up because Kirk lied on the report and then continued to lie to him face-to-face. He doesn't get "theatrical" until he mentions the natives seeing a starship rise up out of their ocean. Kirk states he would've filed a complete report if he hadn't had to save Spock by exposing the Enterprise.

There's the general party line of "we don't interfere". But I believe starship captains have a lot of latitude in deciding what constitutes interference. At least they do in TOS, because Kirk skirted the Prime Directive on more than one occasion. Even Picard was able to violate it with no consequence.
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Old January 20 2014, 06:56 PM   #28
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

BillJ wrote: View Post
The Stig wrote: View Post
Pike didn't agree with Kirk and Spock's interpretation of the PD, full stop. That the plan failed and Kirk was forced to expose the Nibirans to the Enterprise is beside the point.
I'm not so sure.

Pike is already riled up because Kirk lied on the report and then continued to lie to him face-to-face. He doesn't get "theatrical" until he mentions the natives seeing a starship rise up out of their ocean. Kirk states he would've filed a complete report if he hadn't had to save Spock by exposing the Enterprise.

There's the general party line of "we don't interfere". But I believe starship captains have a lot of latitude in deciding what constitutes interference. At least they do in TOS, because Kirk skirted the Prime Directive on more than one occasion.
You're forgetting that Pike and Spock argue about what constitutes 'violating' the PD. Since Pike is mad at Kirk for falsifying a ship's log, the matter is dropped. But it seems clear that, in Pike's mind, any interference with Nibiru's natural processes constitutes a violation of the PD.

Kirk was in trouble no matter what the outcome of the Nibiru mission was. As soon as he and Spock committed to their interpretation of the PD, they ran afoul of Pike.
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Old January 20 2014, 07:00 PM   #29
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

The Stig wrote: View Post
Kirk was in trouble no matter what the outcome of the Nibiru mission was. As soon as he and Spock committed to their interpretation of the PD, they ran afoul of Pike.
That was my take on the scene. Pike is getting ready to launch into both of them, Spock included, before Kirk starts making it worse.
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Old January 20 2014, 07:01 PM   #30
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Re: Obvious plot hole at the beginning

The Stig wrote: View Post

You're forgetting that Pike and Spock argue about what constitutes 'violating' the PD. Since Pike is mad at Kirk for falsifying a ship's log, the matter is dropped. But it seems clear that, in Pike's mind, any interference with Nibiru's natural processes constitutes a violation of the PD.

Kirk was in trouble no matter what the outcome of the Nibiru mission was. As soon as he and Spock committed to their interpretation of the PD, they ran afoul of Pike.
I'm not forgetting anything.

I simply believe that the intervention of the Enterprise on Niburu isn't what got Kirk yanked out of the Captain's chair. It was that he didn't take responsibility for the actions he ordered.

Because, as we've seen on other series installments, violating the Prime Directive with good intentions usually doesn't lead to a loss of command.
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