RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,889
Posts: 5,330,099
Members: 24,558
Currently online: 453
Newest member: Supercapo

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Inquisition
By: Michelle on Jul 12

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 19 2014, 11:39 PM   #16
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
My impression is that Chang and his fellow hard-liners wanted to invade the Federation and take their resources, rather than rely on the Federation's charity. And if the invasion failed . . . well, at least they went down fighting in one glorious final battle. Victory or defeat, live free or die . . . that kinda thing.

They wanted a military solution, not a diplomatic one.

(There's a scene, remember, where some hard-line Klingon generals present Azetbur with a plan for an all-out military strike against the Federation, but she shoots them down.)
Precisely. There was a line spoken by one of the other Klingon generals (the one commanding the prototype BOP, IIRC) to the effect of "better we die on our feet than live on our knees."

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19 2014, 11:49 PM   #17
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
Of course, the plan might have worked had Kirk not been there...
If you've never read Cast No Shadow, Kirk being given the mission was actually Cartwright's idea because he knew of the former's dislike of Klingons. Spock later vouched for Kirk as included in TUC's dialogue, and the mission was set. Cartwright assumed Kirk would retaliate if Gorkon's ship fired on Enterprise, but he failed to realize what made Kirk such an effective leader in the first place: Kirk understood the importance of when to fire and held his ground rather than start a war.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20 2014, 12:52 AM   #18
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

What is with the Romulan and Earth collaboration, though? The Romulan embassador being in cahoots with STAR FLEET and let in on closed door sessions with the Federation President is completely inexplicable and totally inconsistant with the STAR TREK universe. They shouldn't be there. Compared to this, the rest of the plot, regarding Klingons and STAR FLEET collaborating on ending every chance for a peaceful settlement makes perfect sense.
__________________
― Christmas in July!™
2takesfrakes is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 20 2014, 01:02 AM   #19
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

^Recall that the Romulans of TOS were much more Federation-friendly than their TNG counterparts. It's not entirely implausible that a Romulan diplomat would be present for such a meeting. Were Smilie and the others concerned about his presence being a security risk, they could simply have asked him to leave.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20 2014, 01:09 AM   #20
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

I ...

... I suppose so.
__________________
― Christmas in July!™
2takesfrakes is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 20 2014, 02:22 AM   #21
SpHeRe31459
Captain
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Sran wrote: View Post
^Recall that the Romulans of TOS were much more Federation-friendly than their TNG counterparts. It's not entirely implausible that a Romulan diplomat would be present for such a meeting. Were Smilie and the others concerned about his presence being a security risk, they could simply have asked him to leave.

--Sran
Right. Remember the Romulans go into a period of focusing on their internal matters and basically disappear from the Alpha Quadrant political landscape sometime after the TOS movies and stay that way until TNG "The Neutral Zone". But before this it seems that they were more present in politics. And of course started to become much more present diplomatically again with the Dominon threat on the other side of the TNG-era. So when big quadrant affecting events happen it does seem like they're interested.

Given the Romulan dislike for Klingons (and vice-versa), and the even bigger threat an alliance between Klingons and the Federation would pose to their empire, you can certainly see why they'd want it derailed. Which they try to do again in the TNG-era throughout Season 4.
SpHeRe31459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20 2014, 02:55 AM   #22
Armored Saint
Captain
 
Armored Saint's Avatar
 
Location: Quebec City
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Two reasons for the presence of some Romulan diplomats:
1- For the two negociating superpowers, it provides an external point of view and perhaps a mediator.
2- This third superpower may ensure that the two others are not conspiring against it.
Armored Saint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 08:08 PM   #23
MikeS
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Liverpool, UK
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Reading this thread enforces my view of how tightly written this film is. Try to pick it apart and a reason can be found to explain most of it. A brilliant movie. I was going to compare it to Shakespeare - a continuing theme in the movie - but I think that might be taking the adulation a little too far...
__________________
One day soon, man is going to be able to harness incredible energies, energies that could ultimately hurl us to other worlds in... some sort of spaceship.
MikeS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22 2014, 09:51 PM   #24
Rarewolf
Rear Admiral
 
Rarewolf's Avatar
 
Location: Devon, England
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

You have the ironic situation of Humans and Klingons working together to try and insure that Humans and Klingons can't work together.

But sure security is non-existant in orbit, one torpedo could take out the whole conference.
__________________
"Weaselling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals - except the weasels" Homer Jay Simpson
Rarewolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2014, 04:26 PM   #25
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
trevanian's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
Two reasons for the presence of some Romulan diplomats:
1- For the two negociating superpowers, it provides an external point of view and perhaps a mediator.
2- This third superpower may ensure that the two others are not conspiring against it.
I figure each of these governments think the others are always plotting against it, if not together then at least separately. In fact, I always liked the idea (even wrote it up) of the klingons setting the Feds up to take the fall for something big in Romulan space, basically doing the YOJIMBO thing, to knock the two big competitors down to size.

My version would have taken place after SFS, with the klingons using a mockup of the Enterprise (since it was already destroyed, nobody could prove it wasn't the real thing) to attack a Rom conference, and Kirk&co, in their stolen BoP and klingon makeup, find the ruse and Kirk has to destroy another Enterprise in order to stop interstellar war. You'd have that long-awaited 'fed fleet facing off against kling fleet with rom fleet on the third leg' moment, with the Rom fleet pivoting to face the klings when the ruse was discovered, and the roms offering to 'escort' the kling fleet home.
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25 2014, 08:10 PM   #26
Armored Saint
Captain
 
Armored Saint's Avatar
 
Location: Quebec City
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

trevanian wrote: View Post
I figure each of these governments think the others are always plotting against it, if not together then at least separately.
Yeah, when a Federation crew and a Klingon/Romulan/etc one are both caught in a trap, they're immediately accusing eachother.

The Klingon Empire have been able to depict the Genesis affair as an act of agression. A similar Romulan interpretation of the Khitomer Conference would be desatrous.

The Klingons and Romulans shared some technologies together. The Federation try to steal the cloaking technology. The Romulans are directly related to a founding people of the Federation. A lot of Klingons tried to bypass the Organian treaty.

So, the three governments have a lot of reasons to be suspicious and maintaning a bit of trilateral relations (including a Space trash to throw disavowed diplomats).


In fact, I always liked the idea (even wrote it up) of the klingons setting the Feds up to take the fall for something big in Romulan space, basically doing the YOJIMBO thing, to knock the two big competitors down to size.
Interesting indeed, and it seems to be what some Anti-Khitomer Feds feared. Since TNG, this kind of plan seems to be mainly attributed to the Romulans, as if the Klingons were no more able to be themselves sophisticated deceivers.
Armored Saint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1 2014, 06:27 PM   #27
TenLubak
Commander
 
TenLubak's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore MD USA
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

There is more going on than admiral Cartwheel, and the Bald Romulan Ambassador. Somebody on the Klingon homeworld (Kronos) probably went to the moon called Praxis. He might be responsible for blowing it up with a dynomite (a really big stick from the using matter/anti-matter and gunpowder). That Chang portrayed by Christopher Plummers is the bastard I'd bet murdered his own people, even if he himself didn't do the dirty work. But Cartwright might have supplied the Dynomite because Kingon stuff is shitty brown electronics with no more reliably than Radio Shack short wave radios and detonators.


It makes sense that Klingons are embarassed, and the ones who did it are of course would not like anyone to search and find evidence that might implicate them. But even from the most basic sense Klingons are too damned proud to ask for help like the jerk that was onscreen talking to Capt. Sulu of Excellsior.

Or maybe it was just a unfortunate accident from the smooth headed Kingons. Like the fellow who played Trlelane, he couldn't ever say Klingon. Klingins he says. Oh well...I guess maybe all those smooth heads were on the moon when it blew up because I never see another Smooth head Klingon after Praxis Blows up.

The only thing that makes a lot of sense is the pride, and knowing that some of thier own people were responsible for such an 'accident' (on-purpose) blowing up of the moon. So no body wants to talk for different reasons,
__________________
"Now, how are we progressing, Mister La Forge?"
"About like you'd expect, sir."
"Splendid. Splendid. Carry on."

Last edited by TenLubak; February 1 2014 at 06:29 PM. Reason: I got new Pearl Jam and it rocks, but I lost my focus.
TenLubak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2014, 07:43 PM   #28
grendelsbayne
Commander
 
grendelsbayne's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

There really isn't any reason to suspect the Klingons of sabotaging Praxis.

What could their original payoff possibly be? If they wanted to force a war between their Empire and the Federation, they would have faked a Federation attack on a high profile target that wouldn't simutaneously cripple their energy production capabilities.

Praxis was an accident, pure and simple. The conspiracy was a reaction to the accident, an attempt to pre-emptively end the peace process.
grendelsbayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2014, 09:00 PM   #29
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Given that Praxis was meant to be the Star Trek version of Chernobyl, just as Gorkon was loosely based on Gorbachev, there's no reason to think that Praxis was anything but a colossal accident, caused by insufficient safeguards.

Unless we think Russian hard-liners deliberately sabotaged Chernobyl in order to trash their own environment!
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12 2014, 03:46 PM   #30
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Star Trek VI doesn't make sense from the Klingon point of view.

Sran wrote: View Post
^Recall that the Romulans of TOS were much more Federation-friendly than their TNG counterparts.
Sorry, I'm a little late here, but this is false. The Romulans in TOS tried to start a war with the Federation. In TNG, they did not, and they went out of their way to avoid it, at least right up until NEM.

The balance of power that the Federation and the Romulans "enjoyed" in the TOS era was established in "Balance of Terror". It does not negate the adversarial relationship between the powers.

In any case, there is no downside to having ambassadors and observers present during negotiations with other powers. There is only upside, and the presence of embassies facilitates espionage. If allowed, of course there'd be Romulans present.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:43 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.