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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old January 19 2014, 03:14 PM   #31
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Tracey had already "contaminated" the planet by taking sides with the Comms and using phasers as well as arming the Comms with the phasers he took from Kirk's party. Advanced tech had already been introduced. Kirk "explaining" the meaning of the Yangs' document hardly complicates matters.
Well said. Phasers in the hands of Khoms (and the Yangs who witnessed the incredible sight of "fireboxes" at work) alters the culture more than someone reading a native document, simply reiterating its meaning.
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Old January 19 2014, 04:23 PM   #32
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
Tracey had already "contaminated" the planet by taking sides with the Comms and using phasers as well as arming the Comms with the phasers he took from Kirk's party. Advanced tech had already been introduced. Kirk "explaining" the meaning of the Yangs' document hardly complicates matters.
Well said. Phasers in the hands of Khoms (and the Yangs who witnessed the incredible sight of "fireboxes" at work) alters the culture more than someone reading a native document, simply reiterating its meaning.
Prior contamination doesn't give you liberty to do anything you want. Kirk pushes an old man out of the way and gets his greasy paws all over a 2,000 year old document and starts waving it around. And Kirk DOESN'T simply reiterate it's meaning. He gives it a sweeping new definition by saying it applies to the Kohms as well.

If Kirk had just left: executions, looting, pillaging, raping (No, I'm not going to give the Yangs any more credit than any other conquering people)

After Kirk leaves: (In story) At the very least the Yang leader has promised vast social reform.

(In reality) As stated earlier in the thread, some sort of in-house struggle probably resulting in the deposing of Cloud William.

That is the definition of the PD *Interference*.
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Old January 19 2014, 04:27 PM   #33
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

Warped9 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I love "The Omega Glory".
I wouldn't say love, but I do like it.
For all my PD talk, I quite enjoy it also. Even with the stuff at the end, it's very good. And Kirk's speech (with the music) still makes the hair stand up on my arms.

"Weeeee the people!"
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Old January 19 2014, 04:32 PM   #34
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
Tracey had already "contaminated" the planet by taking sides with the Comms and using phasers as well as arming the Comms with the phasers he took from Kirk's party. Advanced tech had already been introduced. Kirk "explaining" the meaning of the Yangs' document hardly complicates matters.
Well said. Phasers in the hands of Khoms (and the Yangs who witnessed the incredible sight of "fireboxes" at work) alters the culture more than someone reading a native document, simply reiterating its meaning.
Prior contamination doesn't give you liberty to do anything you want. Kirk pushes an old man out of the way and gets his greasy paws all over a 2,000 year old document and starts waving it around. And Kirk DOESN'T simply reiterate it's meaning. He gives it a sweeping new definition by saying it applies to the Kohms as well.

If Kirk had just left: executions, looting, pillaging, raping (No, I'm not going to give the Yangs any more credit than any other conquering people)

After Kirk leaves: (In story) At the very least the Yang leader has promised vast social reform.

(In reality) As stated earlier in the thread, some sort of in-house struggle probably resulting in the deposing of Cloud William.

That is the definition of the PD *Interference*.
No, he doesn't reinterpret it. He reiterates what it actually means. And it works in context because the original American Constitution is also meaningless if it doesn't apply to everyone. When it was first drawn up it certainly didn't apply to a whole segment of society that was enslaved in America. But eventually the realization of this crazy paradox was no longer acceptable---it made a mockery of the meaning of the document and the high moral principles Americans professed to stand for.

And in the 1960s, in the midst of racial tensions, this episode was reiterating that message to the audience just as Kirk reiterated to the Yangs.

And there are people today who still cling to notions that the meaning of the Contitution, the principles it espouses, cannot possibly apply to whatever segment or group of people they're against.
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Old January 19 2014, 04:35 PM   #35
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post

Well said. Phasers in the hands of Khoms (and the Yangs who witnessed the incredible sight of "fireboxes" at work) alters the culture more than someone reading a native document, simply reiterating its meaning.
Prior contamination doesn't give you liberty to do anything you want. Kirk pushes an old man out of the way and gets his greasy paws all over a 2,000 year old document and starts waving it around. And Kirk DOESN'T simply reiterate it's meaning. He gives it a sweeping new definition by saying it applies to the Kohms as well.

If Kirk had just left: executions, looting, pillaging, raping (No, I'm not going to give the Yangs any more credit than any other conquering people)

After Kirk leaves: (In story) At the very least the Yang leader has promised vast social reform.

(In reality) As stated earlier in the thread, some sort of in-house struggle probably resulting in the deposing of Cloud William.

That is the definition of the PD *Interference*.
No, he doesn't reinterpret it. He reiterates what it actually means. And it works in context because the original American Constitution is also meaningless if it doesn't apply to everyone. When it was first drawn up it certainly didn't apply to a whole segment of society that was enslaved in America. But eventually the realization of this crazy paradox was no longer acceptable---it made a mockery of the meaning of the document and the high moral principles Americans professed to stand for.

And in the 1960s, in the midst of racial tensions, this episode was reiterating that message to the audience just as Kirk reiterated to the Yangs.
Simply put. The Constitution does not apply to conquered peoples.
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Old January 19 2014, 04:39 PM   #36
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Simply put. The Constitution does not apply to conquered peoples.
And if someone is espousing high sounding morals yet is going around conquering other peoples and enslaving or marginalizing them then they are the ultimate hypocrates. It's the age old story of oppressors being overthrown and then becoming no better than the ones they replaced.
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Old January 19 2014, 04:41 PM   #37
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Prior contamination doesn't give you liberty to do anything you want. Kirk pushes an old man out of the way and gets his greasy paws all over a 2,000 year old document and starts waving it around. And Kirk DOESN'T simply reiterate it's meaning. He gives it a sweeping new definition by saying it applies to the Kohms as well.
Of course he reiterated its meaning; whether the Yangs understood it or not, the words--as read--do not say, "Yangs only, damn it"!" The words are quite broad to the people, so Kirk merely tells the Yangs (who in all honesty--could have lost the vision of the document meaning over the generations) that the conflict will never end unless the Yang directives apply to all on Omega.

After Kirk leaves: (In story) At the very least the Yang leader has promised vast social reform.

(In reality) As stated earlier in the thread, some sort of in-house struggle probably resulting in the deposing of Cloud William.

That is the definition of the PD *Interference*.
Your In Story point IS the point. Social reform is not really doing something alien to the document's meaning. It is simply enforcing the meaning which has--as Kirk's states--been slurred over the passage of centuries.
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Old January 19 2014, 04:53 PM   #38
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post

Of course he reiterated its meaning; whether the Yangs understood it or not, the words--as read--do not say, "Yangs only, damn it"!"

"We the people of The United States of America"=Yangs.

And in your own post you admit that Kirk interfered with the destinations of two civilizations. Whether he "merely" or he "simply"...he did it.

Maybe Kirk would like to hang around and "Merely" point out the hypocrisies in their Bible too. Maybe he should "simply" point out their is no empirical proof for their God.
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Old January 19 2014, 05:07 PM   #39
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

I agree with Warped9, TREK_GOD_1 and Roddenberry (through Kirk) here. The words of the U.S. Constitution are ultimately meaningless if they don't apply to everyone, friend and enemy alike. The document would likely be the greatest ever created in the history of man if we treated people the way it says we should.
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Old January 19 2014, 05:09 PM   #40
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

Botany Bay wrote: View Post
Roddenberry not only thought it was an Emmy-winner, he also let it be the only TOS episode to get the View-Master treatment.
Someone else here has said that Roddenberry picked the episode to get the View-Master treatment because he would get more royalties from the project as the episode's sole credited screenwriter than he would if another episode had been chosen. Not sure if that's true, but it's believable.
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Old January 19 2014, 05:21 PM   #41
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

As for the "silliness" of the events at the end...well, it is a crazy universe. And they have run into parallel worlds and what we saw in Miri with the planet continents being the same.
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Old January 19 2014, 05:29 PM   #42
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
"We the people of The United States of America"=Yangs.
Just as it meant Whites only when the original Constitution was drafted. But as I said upthread since that isn't what the document actually says it is highly hypocritical to proclaim it means one thing while not actually practicing it.

And fact is the Yangs were completely free to ignore what Kirk says to them after he left. I've no doubt that many would still argue the document's meaning despite what they had learned. That is still happening today as throughout history as individuals and groups parse historical texts to get the meaning they want rather than what is actually there. People are still arguing over what America's founding fathers intended. Same with the Bible and the Qoran. But the world of the 18th century isn't much like the world of today except in basic human nature. Some "self-evident truths" of the past simply aren't "self-evident" anymore.
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Old January 19 2014, 05:33 PM   #43
Dale Sams
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

BillJ wrote: View Post
I agree with Warped9, TREK_GOD_1 and Roddenberry (through Kirk) here. The words of the U.S. Constitution are ultimately meaningless if they don't apply to everyone, friend and enemy alike. The document would likely be the greatest ever created in the history of man if we treated people the way it says we should.
One's a Canadian and the other is a God stuck on the edge of the galaxy. Not exactly guys I want to take American Civics lessons from!!

I don't even think we can say, "Maybe at some point the Supreme Court ruled the Constitution applies to all people the soldiers and government of the US interacts with." Hasn't WW3 happened by now?
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Old January 19 2014, 05:45 PM   #44
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I agree with Warped9, TREK_GOD_1 and Roddenberry (through Kirk) here. The words of the U.S. Constitution are ultimately meaningless if they don't apply to everyone, friend and enemy alike. The document would likely be the greatest ever created in the history of man if we treated people the way it says we should.
One's a Canadian and the other is a God stuck on the edge of the galaxy. Not exactly guys I want to take American Civics lessons from!!

I don't even think we can say, "Maybe at some point the Supreme Court ruled the Constitution applies to all people the soldiers and government of the US interacts with." Hasn't WW3 happened by now?
Sometimes you can see things more clearly when you're seeing it from a different angle. Maybe we can see a forest while you only see a few trees.
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Old January 19 2014, 05:53 PM   #45
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Re: Kirk, the PD, "The Omega Glory" and "Miri"

For an episode that's supposed to be a piece of crap, it sure is sparking some heated debate nearly 50 years later....
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