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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 16 2014, 01:26 AM   #151
BigJake
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Is that not your "false equivalence"?
??? No, positing that people may be perceiving something real when they critique a film is not "false equivalence." Whatever are you talking about? The false equivalence I was talking about is the attempt to pretend that all criticisms of Trek product must be irrational and off-base because some of them were.
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Old January 16 2014, 01:45 AM   #152
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BigJake wrote: View Post
The false equivalence I was talking about is the attempt to pretend that all criticisms of Trek product must be irrational and off-base because some of them were.
And what the rest of us was saying is that every Trek incarnation polarizes sections of the fan base. Often because it's new, it's different. The criticisms will always appear "irrational and off-base" to those who love the incarnation being pilloried.
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Old January 16 2014, 01:54 AM   #153
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
And what the rest of us was saying is that every Trek incarnation polarizes sections of the fan base.
Unfortunately there's a stark limit to how interesting that is as concerns actually evaluating opinions (criticisms, praise or what-have-you). And actually evaluating what people say interests me a lot more than trying to plug it into some meta-narrative of fandom, an exercise which as I said above seems mostly to have the function of avoiding and obscuring specifics.
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Old January 17 2014, 04:40 AM   #154
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
When TMP came out, there were people calling for it to be shunted into "an alternate universe" (see "The Best of Trek").
Well, it's a good thing nothing like that ever happened again!
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Old January 17 2014, 06:05 AM   #155
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BigJake wrote: View Post
there is probably something genuinely specific to that film that is producing the kinds of reactions it has, for good and ill.
You're over-thinking this. The "undewhelming" complaint is really just a gut reaction to STID's paucity of space battles.

Think about that for a minute. Vengeance's shootdown of Enterprise happens with all the ceremony of a brick to the face. No dramatic "daaa da da daaaaa!" battle music, no dazzling return fire from the Enterprise, no exchange of Macross Missile Massacre and Vengeance using beam spam to render Enterprise's attack utterly ineffective. No twisting and barreling or dogfighting or chasing.

IOW, when fans saw Vengeance they were expecting the climax from Nemesis. Instead, they got Training Day.
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Old January 17 2014, 07:53 AM   #156
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

^^

Just more of the same starting from Day One of ST: TNG. Our heroes aren't allowed to shoot their way out of a situation and usually* when they encounter an enemy ship, they will be hopelessly overmatched.

*Usually.
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Old January 17 2014, 08:59 AM   #157
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
They've likely already reached that limit, but who says they have to keep mining classic Trek?
Really, that seems to be all they're aiming to do. With two movies, latest one borrows quite a lot from Trek lore and even recreates an entire scene from one of the movies. Even the tie-in material is just mining classic Trek. Half the ongoing comic series are just adaptations of TOS episodes and even the video game is just about the Gorn.

Sure, the Trek universe is limitless, but given the rather limited ambitions displayed in the Abramsverse so far, it can't last beyond a third movie.

^^This!

Originally, I was hoping that ideally we would see 7 movies, keeping in tradition with the 7 seasons of TNG/DS9/VOY. I was hoping we would see a movie arc that, shows the crew as cadets in the first movie (which we got), transitioning to their 5 year mission (1 movie for each year), then a final movie that concludes their stories (IE winding down their term on Enterprise where everyone moves on to something bigger andbetter in the way TUC did for the original cast, but not necessarily the "end of the road" for their careers).

The third movie will really decide for me if I want to see more of the Abramsverse Trek movies. I loved ST 2009, but thought STID was such a stinker. Seriously, I haven't been so let down by a sci fi-fantasy sequel, since The Phantom Menace or Matrix Reloaded\Revolutions. If they can get their mojo back, and actually do something original for the third movie, I am back in for more. If it sucks, or is just as derivative as STID, I am totally out for good.
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Old January 17 2014, 09:48 PM   #158
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
^^

Just more of the same starting from Day One of ST: TNG. Our heroes aren't allowed to shoot their way out of a situation and usually* when they encounter an enemy ship, they will be hopelessly overmatched.

*Usually.
I enjoyed watching an outgunned starship actually being outgunned. The Enterprise was outclassed by the Vengeance and it clearly showed on screen. It took an act of sabotage to give the Enterprise any breathing room at all.
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Old January 18 2014, 01:17 AM   #159
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You're over-thinking this. The "undewhelming" complaint is really just a gut reaction to STID's paucity of space battles.
Well, I was actually talking about TMP, but I would just like to say:

IOW, when fans saw Vengeance they were expecting the climax from Nemesis. Instead, they got Training Day.
I would kill to see a character as awesome as Alonzo Harris in a Trek movie.
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Old January 18 2014, 02:03 AM   #160
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

I haven't forgotten why Spock is a great character, he still is one. I don't see anything wrong about turning the tables with nuSpock, mixing it up a little. I've seen emotionless Spock before, I don't need to get another ten years of the character acting like he did before.

Who knows, someday Quintos Spock may be as endearing to everyone for this portrayal as Nimoy is for his portrayal of primeSpock. We haven't seen the character but in two films, give him some time to grow into this and never forget, Quintos Spock SHOULD BE CONSTANTLY SHOUTING.
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Old January 18 2014, 04:21 AM   #161
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

People act like Nimoy Spock never showed emotion, he did.
This is very true, and it's pretty true of all other Vulcans, too. It's not that they aren't feeling anything, it's that they don't express it openly, they don't talk much about it, etc. I think if you watch TOS or any of the first several trek movies, it's pretty obvious that Spock has and expresses feelings. He just doesn't tend to allow these to make him behave illogically. And just look at any time any Vulcan is acting all prooud of how their race has conquered their past of being overly-emotional, and how smug and superior they seem when dealing with humans doing silly things.

All that being said, I *still* think NuSpock cranking it up to 11 is a bit much, and it does bother me.

The reason there is an emotional impact when Nimoy Spock gets all mushy about his friendship with Kirk, or when Saavik sheds a tear, is because Vulcans usually don't. So that means it's meaningful when they do. When NuSpock is being overemotional all the time, it cheapens it, in my opinion.

I mean, I get that it's different, that he has experienced different things, etc. But for me, I guess I just keep forgetting he's supposed to be part Vulcan at all.

As for Nimoy Spock in the later movies, I always thought that was more about things like the whole V-ger incident and dying, and eventually realizing that logic is important, but so is emotion. He does change and become more human but it's just jarring to see NuSpock being emotional in an unrestrained way, after seeing Nimoy Spock gradually accepting that having emotions and showing them is ok and even a good thing.

And sure, alternate timeline and all, but then, you can't really expect people who watched TOS and the old movies and have been watching them over and over for decades to just simply *not* compare OldSpock and NuSpock. I can't really help doing so.

But then, I will attempt to keep an open mind and see what comes after this.
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